{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6785", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6785, "subject": "Soldier of Sidon writeup", "messages": 18, "voices": 4, "first": "2018-03-24T20:11:31+00:00", "last": "2018-04-03T17:10:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-03-24T20:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are the write-ups for Latro in the Mist and Soldier of Sidon. They are\nvery long because they are meant to serve as annotated commentaries in the\nabsence of annotated editions.\n\nLatro in the Mist\nhttps://pastebin.com/26eeCgit\nSoldier of Sidon\nhttps://pastebin.com/Pg615bEW" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-03-26T14:24:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurs to me as I re-read the start of the essays that Wolfe, as Milton\ndid before him in \"On the Morning of Christ's Nativity\" (and is a quite\ncommon trope of earlier poetry as well), is playing with the associations\nof Pan and Christ not only in the first volume, but in a negative way in\nthe third, when the All-beast (panther) Beteshu (another name for Apep) is\nintroduced as the visible manifestation of Angra Mainyu, the evil spirit or\ndark god contra Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism. This makes me wonder if Jove\nactually is suffering from a case of MPD in these books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHere are the write-ups for Latro in the Mist and Soldier of Sidon. They\nare very long because they are meant to serve as annotated commentaries in\nthe absence of annotated editions.\n\nLatro in the Mist\nhttps://pastebin.com/26eeCgit\nSoldier of Sidon\nhttps://pastebin.com/Pg615bEW" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-04-02T01:10:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, I'm working through your write-up for Latro in the Mist. I've \nbarely scratched the surface, but your voice is authoritative, your \nwriting is clear, and your arguments are logical and yet sensitive to \nall the mysteries and motivations of Wolfe's story and characters. It's \nmore than solid---it's definitive. I stand in awe!\n\nYou note, regarding the Great Mother's aversion to iron, that \"Beyond \nthe fairy tradition, it does not seem that a clear reason for the \naversion to iron is ever given...\" This issue has always bothered and \nfascinated me---the reasoning behind the fairy tradition and how it is \n(inconsistently) used in literature as well as specifically how it works \nhere. Why would the Mother behave like a fairy, and why would Ares \nbehave like a human? If this is the case, is either entity diminished or \nenlarged by this treatment? Does it reveal basic assumptions about gods, \nor is it a forcing of categories necessary under some strict Wolfean \nscheme, or merely a convention?\n\nThe question of why fairies dislike iron may be one of those that can't \never satisfactorily answered. All sorts of arguments have been made, \nincluding contradictory ones. For example, (1) \"Iron has magical \nproperties\" such as magnetism; it was first known and used in the form \nof meteoric iron (literally, \"sky iron\") and was used in lightning rods \non church steeples (2) \"Iron signifies ironworking and other human \nskills\"? that are naturally inimical to fairies, who only use \"natural\" \nmaterials or magic and can't even tie shoes (3) \"Iron is from the earth \nand fairies are sky creatures.\"\n\nThese principles can be applied to good effect in fairy stories that \naddress a limited aspect of the magical world (e.g., the meteoric \nelf-armor-slicing sword in /The King of Elfland's Daughter/, or the \nglamours of /Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell/). But theories #1 and #2 are \ngenerally negated by the fact that fairies (and gods) can be both \nskilled ironworkers */and /*masters of magic. And #3 is just lazy new \nage nonsense.\n\nComprehensive discussion of fairies---and hot babes---here: \nhttp://www.medbherenn.com/faerie-lore.html\n\nI'm not sure we actually know anything concrete about historical worship \nof the Great Mother. Maybe Wolfe is just applying Occam's Razor to fill \nin a gap where it serves his plot. But somehow the Mother's aversion to \niron has to fit with both the universal folklore tradition about the \n(un)dead and the worship of Pleistorus as you describe it: \"the War God \nof the Thracians receives sacrifices to an iron sword planted in the \nground which represents him both in Herodotus and in *Soldier of Arete*.\"\n\nHow can the natures of the Mother and Pleistorus be so fundamentally \nincompatible that they respond differently to the same elemental \nmaterial? Or is this something operating above the level of elemental \ndivinity? Perhaps it makes sense to assume an opposition of the divine \nfemale principle to the male, but (a) why represent this opposition with \niron blades (b) why force Ares into representing the male principle just \nbecause he wields a sword?\n\nThree lines of thinking could apply to both fairies and the Great \nMother, and I think they are instructive.\n\nFirst, iron can symbolize the life force, because it channels lightning, \nsmells like blood, and can be reshaped, meaning that fairies, being \noriginally dead (originating in ancestor worship, are hurt by it. When \nTolkien's blades are forged and reforged, this is in part iron/steel \nbeing used to represent the life force (though it can also signify the \ndeath force in the form of \"satanic mills\"). Because iron has \"life\" in \nit, it can be used to bind the spirits of the dead. This belief \nunderlies iron cemetery fences, knives under the cradle, and iron-bound \ncoffins for detested (i.e., vampiric) individuals.\n\nBut Wolfe probably would not go for this explanation, since his gods \n(unlike the Nazgul) are actually positive forces who reflect the true \nGod. It also seems like a later, rationalizing response to technological \ndevelopment and the Carolingian relegation of the pagan gods to \nsuperstition, rather than true Iron Age belief. However, this principle \nwould allow life-sucking undead entities to be weakened by or have \nreason to fear iron.\n\nSecond, iron's best-known feature is that it can be made sharp (sharper \nthan stone or bronze) and tough and thus is (obviously) associated with \nwar. War means constant use of weapons against armor: constant repair \nand sharpening of swords, as contrasted with the ongoing making of new \nslingstones and spear and arrow heads. The fact that Pleistorus is \nrepresented by a sword is telling. In fact, in Hellas it might \nespecially be associated with the Doric invaders of the Iron Age, some \nof whom became the warlike Spartans, whose slaves tell Latro (as noted) \nabout their worship of the Mother and the Spartans' destruction of her \nforests. Unlike spears and arrows and bronze daggers, which feed people \n(iron plows came later, with the Romans), swords are purely instruments \nof war (like an AR-15 vs. a \"hunting rifle\").\n\nOn the other hand, it seems likely that a goddess of harvest and hunting \nwould deeply prefer her sacrificial victims to be offered up \nintentionally as a gift of value rather than as waste. The Mother would \nnot want battle corpses piled on her shrines or to be offered victims \nkilled in anger. But then, she is not in fact made weak by iron, like a \nfairy, but simply \"refuses to drink the blood of any sacrifice which has \ntouched iron.\" Indeed, she could reasonably abhor all violence other \nthan that needed to gather food, since it diminishes her worshipers and \ntheir reliance on her, or sanction only violence that does not shed \nblood (such as strangling).\n\nThis theory seems to support your overarching thesis of beating Martian \nswords into plowshares, without necessarily relying on traditions of \nfairies or the dead. But it resonates with these traditions because they \ntell us both the gods and the dead are sensitive to such matters. \nFurthermore, the methods of killing men in war are also quite different \nfrom those used to kill animals; similarly, methods of corpse disposal \nare different for honored humans as opposed to hated ones, criminals, or \nanimals.\n\nRegardless of how the gods felt about it, ironless animal and human \nsacrifice was real. Forensic archaeology suggests that when humans were \nritually executed and committed to the bogs in northern Europe, they \nwere neither drowned (despite the obvious convenience of that method) \nnor burned (even though that was the norm for that time and place), nor \nkilled with swords (perhaps too noble a death?), but were instead \nstrangled, hit on the head, axed, and/or had their throats cut. Cutting \nthroats does not need a strong blade that cuts through bone and remains \nsharp.\n\nTheir deaths were highly intentional, in other words, and resembled \nanimal sacrifice; they were performed with full knowledge of an \naudience, whether human or supernal/infernal, and whether being killed \nin this way was honorable or dishonorable. This seems to fit with the \ntraditions regarding fairies and the undead, but it's not obvious what \nthe underlying logic might be. If the spirits of the dead were feared \nenough to need fending off with symbolic iron---but never with \nswords---this might be explained by the \"life force\" theory. Perhaps \niron swords sent the warrior's spirit directly to the afterlife without \nthe gods' devouring it, while iron's life-affirming properties denied \nthe restless dead a return to this plane. Maybe the sacrifice part was \nsimply forgotten in folklore, for obvious reasons.\n\nhttps://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/were-europes-mysterious-bog-people-human-sacrifices/472839/\n\nPersonally, I am skeptical that human sacrifice to gods or elements was \nroutine, or that it occurred other than in times of famine or other \ncrisis. I suspect that at least some of these people were hated and \nfeared as malevolent beings (rightly or not) who required denigration \nand treatment as animals. Whereas respected people might be killed in \nbattle and burned or buried with their retinues, the \"staged violence\" \nand location of the bog peoples' deaths must have been meant to deliver \nthem and their spirits to the underworld in such a manner that their \nspirits were destroyed, while others' spirits were welcomed whole into \nthe underworld. If that was the case, then it could not have been the \nsacrificial victims whose spirits were feared, but everyone else's, \nbecause the power of ritual was strong.\n\nAnd that is why the restless dead fear iron, water, and fire and not \nstring, clubs, or bronze (and it has nothing to do with \"life force\"). \n(Other evidence suggests a similar logic for decapitation.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/24/2018 4:11 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHere are the write-ups for Latro in the Mist and Soldier of Sidon. \nThey are very long because they are meant to serve as annotated \ncommentaries in the absence of annotated editions.\n\nLatro in the Mist\nhttps://pastebin.com/26eeCgit\nSoldier of Sidon\nhttps://pastebin.com/Pg615bEW\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8972a834-9c99-567b-59d0-14ee1a8b2c2f@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-02T09:13:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both group-internal violence as in human sacrifice or external violence \nas in war are both embedded in myth and ritual. Nowadays, propaganda and \nscapegoating groups of people are comparable to myth. The concept of the \nsacred was involved in both acts of killing as in holy war (O.T. Israel, \nUria the Hittite, Gideon) or even burials (Human sacrifice in graves \nexcavated at Ur). Of course the sacrificial patterns change over time \nand culture. Even the economy may be viewed as a sacrificial pattern \nwith its own glory (capital), power (money), sacraments (consumptive \nwealth) and divinity (the invisible hand of the market system). If we \ntake technology into account and the way it is fetishized we have one \nunderlying pattern to both fantasy and science fiction and indeed \n(modern) culture. Biblical Cain is represented as the father of smiths \nwhich may be an example of early culture criticism.\n\n\nOp 2-4-2018 om 03:10 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc, I'm working through your write-up for Latro in the Mist. I've \nbarely scratched the surface, but your voice is authoritative, your \nwriting is clear, and your arguments are logical and yet sensitive to \nall the mysteries and motivations of Wolfe's story and characters. \nIt's more than solid---it's definitive. I stand in awe!\n\nYou note, regarding the Great Mother's aversion to iron, that \"Beyond \nthe fairy tradition, it does not seem that a clear reason for the \naversion to iron is ever given...\" This issue has always bothered and \nfascinated me---the reasoning behind the fairy tradition and how it is \n(inconsistently) used in literature as well as specifically how it \nworks here. Why would the Mother behave like a fairy, and why would \nAres behave like a human? If this is the case, is either entity \ndiminished or enlarged by this treatment? Does it reveal basic \nassumptions about gods, or is it a forcing of categories necessary \nunder some strict Wolfean scheme, or merely a convention?\n\nThe question of why fairies dislike iron may be one of those that \ncan't ever satisfactorily answered. All sorts of arguments have been \nmade, including contradictory ones. For example, (1) \"Iron has magical \nproperties\" such as magnetism; it was first known and used in the form \nof meteoric iron (literally, \"sky iron\") and was used in lightning \nrods on church steeples (2) \"Iron signifies ironworking and other \nhuman skills\"? that are naturally inimical to fairies, who only use \n\"natural\" materials or magic and can't even tie shoes (3) \"Iron is \nfrom the earth and fairies are sky creatures.\"\n\nThese principles can be applied to good effect in fairy stories that \naddress a limited aspect of the magical world (e.g., the meteoric \nelf-armor-slicing sword in /The King of Elfland's Daughter/, or the \nglamours of /Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell/). But theories #1 and #2 \nare generally negated by the fact that fairies (and gods) can be both \nskilled ironworkers */and /*masters of magic. And #3 is just lazy new \nage nonsense.\n\nComprehensive discussion of fairies---and hot babes---here: \nhttp://www.medbherenn.com/faerie-lore.html\n\nI'm not sure we actually know anything concrete about historical \nworship of the Great Mother. Maybe Wolfe is just applying Occam's \nRazor to fill in a gap where it serves his plot. But somehow the \nMother's aversion to iron has to fit with both the universal folklore \ntradition about the (un)dead and the worship of Pleistorus as you \ndescribe it: \"the War God of the Thracians receives sacrifices to an \niron sword planted in the ground which represents him both in \nHerodotus and in *Soldier of Arete*.\"\n\nHow can the natures of the Mother and Pleistorus be so fundamentally \nincompatible that they respond differently to the same elemental \nmaterial? Or is this something operating above the level of elemental \ndivinity? Perhaps it makes sense to assume an opposition of the divine \nfemale principle to the male, but (a) why represent this opposition \nwith iron blades (b) why force Ares into representing the male \nprinciple just because he wields a sword?\n\nThree lines of thinking could apply to both fairies and the Great \nMother, and I think they are instructive.\n\nFirst, iron can symbolize the life force, because it channels \nlightning, smells like blood, and can be reshaped, meaning that \nfairies, being originally dead (originating in ancestor worship, are \nhurt by it. When Tolkien's blades are forged and reforged, this is in \npart iron/steel being used to represent the life force (though it can \nalso signify the death force in the form of \"satanic mills\"). Because \niron has \"life\" in it, it can be used to bind the spirits of the dead. \nThis belief underlies iron cemetery fences, knives under the cradle, \nand iron-bound coffins for detested (i.e., vampiric) individuals.\n\nBut Wolfe probably would not go for this explanation, since his gods \n(unlike the Nazgul) are actually positive forces who reflect the true \nGod. It also seems like a later, rationalizing response to \ntechnological development and the Carolingian relegation of the pagan \ngods to superstition, rather than true Iron Age belief. However, this \nprinciple would allow life-sucking undead entities to be weakened by \nor have reason to fear iron.\n\nSecond, iron's best-known feature is that it can be made sharp \n(sharper than stone or bronze) and tough and thus is (obviously) \nassociated with war. War means constant use of weapons against armor: \nconstant repair and sharpening of swords, as contrasted with the \nongoing making of new slingstones and spear and arrow heads. The fact \nthat Pleistorus is represented by a sword is telling. In fact, in \nHellas it might especially be associated with the Doric invaders of \nthe Iron Age, some of whom became the warlike Spartans, whose slaves \ntell Latro (as noted) about their worship of the Mother and the \nSpartans' destruction of her forests. Unlike spears and arrows and \nbronze daggers, which feed people (iron plows came later, with the \nRomans), swords are purely instruments of war (like an AR-15 vs. a \n\"hunting rifle\").\n\nOn the other hand, it seems likely that a goddess of harvest and \nhunting would deeply prefer her sacrificial victims to be offered up \nintentionally as a gift of value rather than as waste. The Mother \nwould not want battle corpses piled on her shrines or to be offered \nvictims killed in anger. But then, she is not in fact made weak by \niron, like a fairy, but simply \"refuses to drink the blood of any \nsacrifice which has touched iron.\" Indeed, she could reasonably abhor \nall violence other than that needed to gather food, since it \ndiminishes her worshipers and their reliance on her, or sanction only \nviolence that does not shed blood (such as strangling).\n\nThis theory seems to support your overarching thesis of beating \nMartian swords into plowshares, without necessarily relying on \ntraditions of fairies or the dead. But it resonates with these \ntraditions because they tell us both the gods and the dead are \nsensitive to such matters. Furthermore, the methods of killing men in \nwar are also quite different from those used to kill animals; \nsimilarly, methods of corpse disposal are different for honored humans \nas opposed to hated ones, criminals, or animals.\n\nRegardless of how the gods felt about it, ironless animal and human \nsacrifice was real. Forensic archaeology suggests that when humans \nwere ritually executed and committed to the bogs in northern Europe, \nthey were neither drowned (despite the obvious convenience of that \nmethod) nor burned (even though that was the norm for that time and \nplace), nor killed with swords (perhaps too noble a death?), but were \ninstead strangled, hit on the head, axed, and/or had their throats \ncut. Cutting throats does not need a strong blade that cuts through \nbone and remains sharp.\n\nTheir deaths were highly intentional, in other words, and resembled \nanimal sacrifice; they were performed with full knowledge of an \naudience, whether human or supernal/infernal, and whether being killed \nin this way was honorable or dishonorable. This seems to fit with the \ntraditions regarding fairies and the undead, but it's not obvious what \nthe underlying logic might be. If the spirits of the dead were feared \nenough to need fending off with symbolic iron---but never with \nswords---this might be explained by the \"life force\" theory. Perhaps \niron swords sent the warrior's spirit directly to the afterlife \nwithout the gods' devouring it, while iron's life-affirming properties \ndenied the restless dead a return to this plane. Maybe the sacrifice \npart was simply forgotten in folklore, for obvious reasons.\n\nhttps://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/were-europes-mysterious-bog-people-human-sacrifices/472839/\n\nPersonally, I am skeptical that human sacrifice to gods or elements \nwas routine, or that it occurred other than in times of famine or \nother crisis. I suspect that at least some of these people were hated \nand feared as malevolent beings (rightly or not) who required \ndenigration and treatment as animals. Whereas respected people might \nbe killed in battle and burned or buried with their retinues, the \n\"staged violence\" and location of the bog peoples' deaths must have \nbeen meant to deliver them and their spirits to the underworld in such \na manner that their spirits were destroyed, while others' spirits were \nwelcomed whole into the underworld. If that was the case, then it \ncould not have been the sacrificial victims whose spirits were feared, \nbut everyone else's, because the power of ritual was strong.\n\nAnd that is why the restless dead fear iron, water, and fire and not \nstring, clubs, or bronze (and it has nothing to do with \"life force\"). \n(Other evidence suggests a similar logic for decapitation.)\n\nOn 3/24/2018 4:11 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here are the write-ups for Latro in the Mist and Soldier of Sidon. \nThey are very long because they are meant to serve as annotated \ncommentaries in the absence of annotated editions.\n\nLatro in the Mist\nhttps://pastebin.com/26eeCgit\nSoldier of Sidon\nhttps://pastebin.com/Pg615bEW\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-04-02T14:05:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<8972a834-9c99-567b-59d0-14ee1a8b2c2f@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I think the fact that war dead can and have been seen as a form of \nsacrifice strengthens the Great Mother's distinction between war and \nworship, especially in Wolfe's hands. Refusing to honor men sacrificed \nin that manner would be---and has been---a major political and religious \nstatement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/2/2018 5:13 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\nBoth group-internal violence as in human sacrifice or external \nviolence as in war are both embedded in myth and ritual. Nowadays, \npropaganda and scapegoating groups of people are comparable to myth. \nThe concept of the sacred was involved in both acts of killing as in \nholy war (O.T. Israel, Uria the Hittite, Gideon) or even burials \n(Human sacrifice in graves excavated at Ur). Of course the sacrificial \npatterns change over time and culture. Even the economy may be viewed \nas a sacrificial pattern with its own glory (capital), power (money), \nsacraments (consumptive wealth) and divinity (the invisible hand of \nthe market system). If we take technology into account and the way it \nis fetishized we have one underlying pattern to both fantasy and \nscience fiction and indeed (modern) culture. Biblical Cain is \nrepresented as the father of smiths which may be an example of early \nculture criticism." } ] }, { "message_id": "<51cfcd08-4680-0b0d-067a-940e3f2dbd5e@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-04-02T14:06:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is striking that, from our vantage, that association just seems \nwrong. And yet, upon reflection, so right. I suppose Sol Invictus must \nbe a link somewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/1/2018 10:54 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nWolfe really brought things full circle by having Latro wind up on the \nIsland of Philae at the end of Sidon ... a place where Christian \niconoclasts effaced all the Egyptian gods but the war god Horace and \nhis winged disk because they felt he somehow resonated with Christ. \nAwesome bit of historical synthesis." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-04-03T00:55:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Expanding on my comments of yesterday (apologies if they were \nlong-winded), because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to the \nChristian syncretistic theme.\n\nMarc goes on to quote Herodotus about the Scythians' human sacrifices to \nAres:\n\">[62] ? [I]n Ares? case things are different. In every district, within \neach province, a sanctuary has been constructed to Ares. — Bundles of \nsticks are piled together into a block about three stades by three \nstades wide, but not so high off the ground. — Each year they add a \nhundred and fifty cart-loads of sticks, to make up for the subsidence \ncaused by the winter’s storms. On top of this structure the inhabitants \nof each district plan an ancient iron *akinakes* [a small, straight \nsword of Scythia and Persia], which is taken to represent Ares. The \nfestival takes place once a year, and at it they offer this *akinakes* \nmore domestic animals and horses as sacrificial victims than all the \nother gods receive. They also sacrifice prisoners of war to this \n*akinakes*, though the method is different from when domestic animals \nare the victims. One prisoner in every hundred is selected; they pour \nwine over the prisoners? heads, cut their throats so that the blood \nspills into a jar, and then carry the jars up on to the pile of sticks \nand pour the blood over the *akinakes*. While the jars are being taken \nup there, something else is happening down below, by the side of the \nsanctuary: they cut off the right arms of all the slaughtered men — the \nwhole arm, from shoulder to hand — and hurl them into the air. Then they \nsacrifice all the rest of the victims and leave. The arms are left lying \nwherever they fall, detached from the corpses. (255)\"\n\nOne can't help but notice that there are really only two slight but very \ndeliberate---and almost illogical---differences between the sacrifices \nof animals and these humans. I say \"illogical\" because it seems easier \nto simply kill the victim directly with the sacred sword, as Elric would \nwield Stormbringer. But:\n(1) Wine is poured on the victim's head. Maybe this is in token exchange \nfor the blood? Is wine then a kind of blood equivalent, with life symbolism?\n(2) The victim's drained blood is applied to the iron sword rather than \nthe reverse.\n\nSo what is so important about this overly complicated means of getting \nblood in contact with the iron sword? Truly, this is hardly a \"different \nmethod\" at all. The victims are slashed at the throat and drained as in \nany animal sacrifice. It is plainly important that this part of the \nnormal cult ritual be maintained; it may satisfy unknown requirements, \nit may be the oldest part of the ritual, it may have a specific magic \neffect, or all of these.\n\nBut the description also suggests that the victims' throats are *not \n*cut with iron blades, because that would logically interfere with the \nmost sacred, symbolic, and difficult part of the ritual: applying the \nblood to the sword. Especially if iron has its own magical significance, \nyou'd want to keep it away from the blood. Whatever value the blood \ncarries must reach the sword intact, as though iron interferes with it \nin a way that stone and bronze do not. And since the soul departs the \nbody long before the blood reaches the sword, you have to wonder if this \nsegregation also serves some sort of hygienic purpose regarding the spirit.\n\nWe can conclude from this that if the Scythians actually? performed \nthese sacrifices, the ritual use of an iron sword was grafted onto older \nrituals involving animals and stone or bronze blades. For Wolfe, the \nGreat Mother has good reason to disdain iron blades. But Herodotus shows \nher distaste is not for violence or the worship of Ares. *Even Ares \ndoesn't want the blood of men killed with iron.\n\n*For some reason, iron must be kept away from all sacrificial victims \nfor all the gods. And this seems to hold for the bog people too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4737E17E7C8C3C4A8B5C1CE5346371D4A8490D3E@EXCH06S.adqimr.ad.lan>", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimrberghofer.edu.au" }, "date": "2018-04-03T01:06:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<51cfcd08-4680-0b0d-067a-940e3f2dbd5e@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have been seeking in vain for any evidence that Latro meets Jews or Judaeans along the way.\nThe most obvious place would have been at Yeb a.k.a. Elephantine Island, from where there are a \nheap of papyri dating from exactly the time that L. visits (spans 525 to 420 BCE), written by members of the Jewish community there eg\n\n\"On the 18th of Paophi, in the 4th year of Artaxerxes the king [461 BCE], in Yeb the fortress, said Malchiah b. Joshibiah, Aramaean, holding property in Yeb the fortress, of the detachment of Nabukudurri...I should challenge you by Herembethel the god before 4 judges: I did not enter your house by force...\"\n\nThey were originally Judaean mercenaries manning the fortress. Their temple has five doors that probably represent Yahu (the God of Heaven), but also Bethel (Canaanite, Herembethel is \"house/temple of Bethel\"), Anathya'u (possibly Syrian, the queen of heaven) etc.\n\nMy original thinking was that Seven Lions might have something to do with Ethiopian Beth Israel Jewry, Sheba etc etc - he originally came from the south.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2018 David Stockoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is striking that, from our vantage, that association just seems\nwrong. And yet, upon reflection, so right. I suppose Sol Invictus must\nbe a link somewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/1/2018 10:54 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWolfe really brought things full circle by having Latro wind up on the\nIsland of Philae at the end of Sidon ... a place where Christian\niconoclasts effaced all the Egyptian gods but the war god Horace and\nhis winged disk because they felt he somehow resonated with Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-04-03T03:13:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<4737E17E7C8C3C4A8B5C1CE5346371D4A8490D3E@EXCH06S.adqimr.ad.lan>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's actually in an interview with James Jordan here\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html\n\n*GW:* Not tremendously. It was just at the time I was planning a third book\nand I wanted to get him into the Semitic world. [Moving from] the Hellenic\nworld that these two books were laid in very largely and to involve him\nwith the Phoenicians and the Jews and the Syrians and that part of the\nworld. When I originally conceived the series I wanted to do a tour of the\nancient world so to speak. And I had hoped in fact to get him into the new\nworld where there were the Mayan and the so on the various American Indian\ncivilizations. They really dislike the term Native American, Indians. I\nrealize Indians is not a very good term for them I don't think Native\nAmericans is a good term either. I wanted to do all those things and after\nthe second book David Hartwell, my editor, called me up and told me not to\nwrite the third one. He now denies that by the way but he did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 6:06 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nI have been seeking in vain for any evidence that Latro meets Jews or\nJudaeans along the way.\nThe most obvious place would have been at Yeb a.k.a. Elephantine Island,\nfrom where there are a\nheap of papyri dating from exactly the time that L. visits (spans 525 to\n420 BCE), written by members of the Jewish community there eg\n\n\"On the 18th of Paophi, in the 4th year of Artaxerxes the king [461 BCE],\nin Yeb the fortress, said Malchiah b. Joshibiah, Aramaean, holding property\nin Yeb the fortress, of the detachment of Nabukudurri...I should challenge\nyou by Herembethel the god before 4 judges: I did not enter your house by\nforce...\"\n\nThey were originally Judaean mercenaries manning the fortress. Their\ntemple has five doors that probably represent Yahu (the God of Heaven), but\nalso Bethel (Canaanite, Herembethel is \"house/temple of Bethel\"), Anathya'u\n(possibly Syrian, the queen of heaven) etc.\n\nMy original thinking was that Seven Lions might have something to do with\nEthiopian Beth Israel Jewry, Sheba etc etc - he originally came from the\nsouth.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-03T12:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is hypothesized in anthropology that human sacrifice came first and \nall other forms of animal and plant sacrifice came later. Animal \nhusbandry and food planting supposedly took place originally within the \nconfines of the ritual-sacrificial system. War among the Aztecs was for \nthe purpose of human sacrifice. Myth further was the verbalization of \nsacrifice and only later took on a life of its own as in the Homeric \nvision of the Gods.\n\nRene Girard says the sacrificial mechanism of the scape goat is the \nbasis of human culture. He analyses Greek tragedy and the Gospels as \nforms of discourse in which this mechanism reaches the threshold of \ncultural awareness after millennia of simply being lived. The \ndevelopment of human culture is basically the evolution of the \nsacrificial mechanism and the way it structures and channels violence. \nIt suffuses all aspects of culture and has its own logic of \ndifferentiation. Some classicists consider his theory 'gnostic' because \nit is a master key to analyzing human culture and not historically \nspecific. Girard has developed the theory of mimetic desire and violence \nas the core of his anthropological and literary criticism.\n\nI guess \"it's all about Eve\".\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 02:55 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Expanding on my comments of yesterday (apologies if they were \nlong-winded), because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to the \nChristian syncretistic theme.\n\nMarc goes on to quote Herodotus about the Scythians' human sacrifices \nto Ares:\n\">[62] ? [I]n Ares? case things are different. In every district, \nwithin each province, a sanctuary has been constructed to Ares. ? \nBundles of sticks are piled together into a block about three stades \nby three stades wide, but not so high off the ground. — Each year they \nadd a hundred and fifty cart-loads of sticks, to make up for the \nsubsidence caused by the winter’s storms. On top of this structure the \ninhabitants of each district plan an ancient iron *akinakes* [a small, \nstraight sword of Scythia and Persia], which is taken to represent \nAres. The festival takes place once a year, and at it they offer this \n*akinakes* more domestic animals and horses as sacrificial victims \nthan all the other gods receive. They also sacrifice prisoners of war \nto this *akinakes*, though the method is different from when domestic \nanimals are the victims. One prisoner in every hundred is selected; \nthey pour wine over the prisoners? heads, cut their throats so that \nthe blood spills into a jar, and then carry the jars up on to the pile \nof sticks and pour the blood over the *akinakes*. While the jars are \nbeing taken up there, something else is happening down below, by the \nside of the sanctuary: they cut off the right arms of all the \nslaughtered men — the whole arm, from shoulder to hand — and hurl them \ninto the air. Then they sacrifice all the rest of the victims and \nleave. The arms are left lying wherever they fall, detached from the \ncorpses. (255)\"\n\nOne can't help but notice that there are really only two slight but \nvery deliberate---and almost illogical---differences between the \nsacrifices of animals and these humans. I say \"illogical\" because it \nseems easier to simply kill the victim directly with the sacred sword, \nas Elric would wield Stormbringer. But:\n(1) Wine is poured on the victim's head. Maybe this is in token \nexchange for the blood? Is wine then a kind of blood equivalent, with \nlife symbolism?\n(2) The victim's drained blood is applied to the iron sword rather \nthan the reverse.\n\nSo what is so important about this overly complicated means of getting \nblood in contact with the iron sword? Truly, this is hardly a \n\"different method\" at all. The victims are slashed at the throat and \ndrained as in any animal sacrifice. It is plainly important that this \npart of the normal cult ritual be maintained; it may satisfy unknown \nrequirements, it may be the oldest part of the ritual, it may have a \nspecific magic effect, or all of these.\n\nBut the description also suggests that the victims' throats are *not \n*cut with iron blades, because that would logically interfere with the \nmost sacred, symbolic, and difficult part of the ritual: applying the \nblood to the sword. Especially if iron has its own magical \nsignificance, you'd want to keep it away from the blood. Whatever \nvalue the blood carries must reach the sword intact, as though iron \ninterferes with it in a way that stone and bronze do not. And since \nthe soul departs the body long before the blood reaches the sword, you \nhave to wonder if this segregation also serves some sort of hygienic \npurpose regarding the spirit.\n\nWe can conclude from this that if the Scythians actually performed \nthese sacrifices, the ritual use of an iron sword was grafted onto \nolder rituals involving animals and stone or bronze blades. For Wolfe, \nthe Great Mother has good reason to disdain iron blades. But Herodotus \nshows her distaste is not for violence or the worship of Ares. *Even \nAres doesn't want the blood of men killed with iron.\n\n*For some reason, iron must be kept away from all sacrificial victims \nfor all the gods. And this seems to hold for the bog people too.\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5adf051e-e087-8c85-df9b-632ae4d2702f@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-03T12:46:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I cannot reach the site.\n\nHow is Wolfe's health by the way?\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 05:13 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's actually in an interview with James Jordan here\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html \n\n*\n*\n*GW:*?Not tremendously. It was just at the time I was planning a third \nbook and I wanted to get him into the Semitic world. [Moving from] the \nHellenic world that these two books were laid in very largely and to \ninvolve him with the Phoenicians and the Jews and the Syrians and that \npart of the world. When I originally conceived the series I wanted to \ndo a tour of the ancient world so to speak. And I had hoped in fact to \nget him into the new world where there were the Mayan and the so on \nthe various American Indian civilizations. They really dislike the \nterm Native American, Indians. I realize Indians is not a very good \nterm for them I don't think Native Americans is a good term either. I \nwanted to do all those things and after the second book David \nHartwell, my editor, called me up and told me not to write the third \none. He now denies that by the way but he did.\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 6:06 PM, David Duffy \n> wrote:\n\n I have been seeking in vain for any evidence that Latro meets Jews\n or Judaeans along the way.\n The most obvious place would have been at Yeb a.k.a. Elephantine\n Island, from where there are a\n heap of papyri dating from exactly the time that L. visits (spans\n 525 to 420 BCE), written by members of the Jewish community there eg\n\n \"On the 18th of Paophi, in the 4th year of Artaxerxes the king\n [461 BCE], in Yeb the fortress, said Malchiah b. Joshibiah,\n Aramaean, holding property in Yeb the fortress, of the detachment\n of Nabukudurri...I should challenge you by Herembethel the god\n before 4 judges: I did not enter your house by force...\"\n\n They were originally Judaean mercenaries manning the fortress.\n Their temple has five doors that probably represent Yahu (the God\n of Heaven), but also Bethel (Canaanite, Herembethel is\n \"house/temple of Bethel\"), Anathya'u (possibly Syrian, the queen\n of heaven) etc.\n\n My original thinking was that Seven Lions might have something to\n do with Ethiopian Beth Israel Jewry, Sheba etc etc - he originally\n came from the south.\n\n Cheers, David Duffy.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92531e48-a727-9ff5-2b8f-8b71d7ddf668@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-04-03T12:57:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may well be the case, but it would have happened long before the \nIron Age. I'm not suggesting that animal sacrifice came first, but \npointing out that the use of stone and bronze blades came first, and \narguing that iron blades were kept apart from those rituals even when \nthey were the center of them, like the akinakes.\n\nAlso, it still holds that victims killed \"in anger\" by any means are not \nacceptable to a god---not even Ares." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/3/2018 8:14 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\nIt is hypothesized in anthropology that human sacrifice came first and \nall other forms of animal and plant sacrifice came later. Animal \nhusbandry and food planting supposedly took place originally within \nthe confines of the ritual-sacrificial system. War among the Aztecs \nwas for the purpose of human sacrifice. Myth further was the \nverbalization of sacrifice and only later took on a life of its own as \nin the Homeric vision of the Gods.\n\nRene Girard says the sacrificial mechanism of the scape goat is the \nbasis of human culture. He analyses Greek tragedy and the Gospels as \nforms of discourse in which this mechanism reaches the threshold of \ncultural awareness after millennia of simply being lived. The \ndevelopment of human culture is basically the evolution of the \nsacrificial mechanism and the way it structures and channels violence. \nIt suffuses all aspects of culture and has its own logic of \ndifferentiation. Some classicists consider his theory 'gnostic' \nbecause it is a master key to analyzing human culture and not \nhistorically specific. Girard has developed the theory of mimetic \ndesire and violence as the core of his anthropological and literary \ncriticism.\n\nI guess \"it's all about Eve\".\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 02:55 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Expanding on my comments of yesterday (apologies if they were \nlong-winded), because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to \nthe Christian syncretistic theme.\n\nMarc goes on to quote Herodotus about the Scythians' human sacrifices \nto Ares:\n\">[62] ? [I]n Ares? case things are different. In every district, \nwithin each province, a sanctuary has been constructed to Ares. ? \nBundles of sticks are piled together into a block about three stades \nby three stades wide, but not so high off the ground. — Each year \nthey add a hundred and fifty cart-loads of sticks, to make up for the \nsubsidence caused by the winter’s storms. On top of this structure \nthe inhabitants of each district plan an ancient iron *akinakes* [a \nsmall, straight sword of Scythia and Persia], which is taken to \nrepresent Ares. The festival takes place once a year, and at it they \noffer this *akinakes* more domestic animals and horses as sacrificial \nvictims than all the other gods receive. They also sacrifice \nprisoners of war to this *akinakes*, though the method is different \nfrom when domestic animals are the victims. One prisoner in every \nhundred is selected; they pour wine over the prisoners? heads, cut \ntheir throats so that the blood spills into a jar, and then carry the \njars up on to the pile of sticks and pour the blood over the \n*akinakes*. While the jars are being taken up there, something else \nis happening down below, by the side of the sanctuary: they cut off \nthe right arms of all the slaughtered men — the whole arm, from \nshoulder to hand — and hurl them into the air. Then they sacrifice \nall the rest of the victims and leave. The arms are left lying \nwherever they fall, detached from the corpses. (255)\"\n\nOne can't help but notice that there are really only two slight but \nvery deliberate---and almost illogical---differences between the \nsacrifices of animals and these humans. I say \"illogical\" because it \nseems easier to simply kill the victim directly with the sacred \nsword, as Elric would wield Stormbringer. But:\n(1) Wine is poured on the victim's head. Maybe this is in token \nexchange for the blood? Is wine then a kind of blood equivalent, with \nlife symbolism?\n(2) The victim's drained blood is applied to the iron sword rather \nthan the reverse.\n\nSo what is so important about this overly complicated means of \ngetting blood in contact with the iron sword? Truly, this is hardly a \n\"different method\" at all. The victims are slashed at the throat and \ndrained as in any animal sacrifice. It is plainly important that this \npart of the normal cult ritual be maintained; it may satisfy unknown \nrequirements, it may be the oldest part of the ritual, it may have a \nspecific magic effect, or all of these.\n\nBut the description also suggests that the victims' throats are *not \n*cut with iron blades, because that would logically interfere with \nthe most sacred, symbolic, and difficult part of the ritual: applying \nthe blood to the sword. Especially if iron has its own magical \nsignificance, you'd want to keep it away from the blood. Whatever \nvalue the blood carries must reach the sword intact, as though iron \ninterferes with it in a way that stone and bronze do not. And since \nthe soul departs the body long before the blood reaches the sword, \nyou have to wonder if this segregation also serves some sort of \nhygienic purpose regarding the spirit.\n\nWe can conclude from this that if the Scythians actually performed \nthese sacrifices, the ritual use of an iron sword was grafted onto \nolder rituals involving animals and stone or bronze blades. For \nWolfe, the Great Mother has good reason to disdain iron blades. But \nHerodotus shows her distaste is not for violence or the worship of \nAres. *Even Ares doesn't want the blood of men killed with iron.\n\n*For some reason, iron must be kept away from all sacrificial victims \nfor all the gods. And this seems to hold for the bog people too.\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9cb75891-71a5-2699-8c7a-93d96723f4d0@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-03T13:49:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<92531e48-a727-9ff5-2b8f-8b71d7ddf668@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with your first remark. I thought you meant animal sacrifice \ncame first.\n\nAs to your second remark I'm not sure. People get worked up in a \nsacrificial context. It may even be demanded they show a ritualized form \nof anger. Myth, ritual and drama usually went together and some sort of \nstory was being acted out. Often connecting the community to the times \nof the \"beginning\" and effecting? a renewal. An initiation rite being a \nnew birth for instance.\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 14:57 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That may well be the case, but it would have happened long before the \nIron Age. I'm not suggesting that animal sacrifice came first, but \npointing out that the use of stone and bronze blades came first, and \narguing that iron blades were kept apart from those rituals even when \nthey were the center of them, like the akinakes.\n\nAlso, it still holds that victims killed \"in anger\" by any means are \nnot acceptable to a god---not even Ares.\n\n\nOn 4/3/2018 8:14 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is hypothesized in anthropology that human sacrifice came first \nand all other forms of animal and plant sacrifice came later. Animal \nhusbandry and food planting supposedly took place originally within \nthe confines of the ritual-sacrificial system. War among the Aztecs \nwas for the purpose of human sacrifice. Myth further was the \nverbalization of sacrifice and only later took on a life of its own \nas in the Homeric vision of the Gods.\n\nRene Girard says the sacrificial mechanism of the scape goat is the \nbasis of human culture. He analyses Greek tragedy and the Gospels as \nforms of discourse in which this mechanism reaches the threshold of \ncultural awareness after millennia of simply being lived. The \ndevelopment of human culture is basically the evolution of the \nsacrificial mechanism and the way it structures and channels \nviolence. It suffuses all aspects of culture and has its own logic of \ndifferentiation. Some classicists consider his theory 'gnostic' \nbecause it is a master key to analyzing human culture and not \nhistorically specific. Girard has developed the theory of mimetic \ndesire and violence as the core of his anthropological and literary \ncriticism.\n\nI guess \"it's all about Eve\".\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 02:55 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Expanding on my comments of yesterday (apologies if they were \nlong-winded), because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to \nthe Christian syncretistic theme.\n\nMarc goes on to quote Herodotus about the Scythians' human \nsacrifices to Ares:\n\">[62] ? [I]n Ares? case things are different. In every district, \nwithin each province, a sanctuary has been constructed to Ares. ? \nBundles of sticks are piled together into a block about three stades \nby three stades wide, but not so high off the ground. — Each year \nthey add a hundred and fifty cart-loads of sticks, to make up for \nthe subsidence caused by the winter’s storms. On top of this \nstructure the inhabitants of each district plan an ancient iron \n*akinakes* [a small, straight sword of Scythia and Persia], which is \ntaken to represent Ares. The festival takes place once a year, and \nat it they offer this *akinakes* more domestic animals and horses as \nsacrificial victims than all the other gods receive. They also \nsacrifice prisoners of war to this *akinakes*, though the method is \ndifferent from when domestic animals are the victims. One prisoner \nin every hundred is selected; they pour wine over the prisoners? \nheads, cut their throats so that the blood spills into a jar, and \nthen carry the jars up on to the pile of sticks and pour the blood \nover the *akinakes*. While the jars are being taken up there, \nsomething else is happening down below, by the side of the \nsanctuary: they cut off the right arms of all the slaughtered men ? \nthe whole arm, from shoulder to hand — and hurl them into the air. \nThen they sacrifice all the rest of the victims and leave. The arms \nare left lying wherever they fall, detached from the corpses. (255)\"\n\nOne can't help but notice that there are really only two slight but \nvery deliberate---and almost illogical---differences between the \nsacrifices of animals and these humans. I say \"illogical\" because it \nseems easier to simply kill the victim directly with the sacred \nsword, as Elric would wield Stormbringer. But:\n(1) Wine is poured on the victim's head. Maybe this is in token \nexchange for the blood? Is wine then a kind of blood equivalent, \nwith life symbolism?\n(2) The victim's drained blood is applied to the iron sword rather \nthan the reverse.\n\nSo what is so important about this overly complicated means of \ngetting blood in contact with the iron sword? Truly, this is hardly \na \"different method\" at all. The victims are slashed at the throat \nand drained as in any animal sacrifice. It is plainly important that \nthis part of the normal cult ritual be maintained; it may satisfy \nunknown requirements, it may be the oldest part of the ritual, it \nmay have a specific magic effect, or all of these.\n\nBut the description also suggests that the victims' throats are *not \n*cut with iron blades, because that would logically interfere with \nthe most sacred, symbolic, and difficult part of the ritual: \napplying the blood to the sword. Especially if iron has its own \nmagical significance, you'd want to keep it away from the blood. \nWhatever value the blood carries must reach the sword intact, as \nthough iron interferes with it in a way that stone and bronze do \nnot. And since the soul departs the body long before the blood \nreaches the sword, you have to wonder if this segregation also \nserves some sort of hygienic purpose regarding the spirit.\n\nWe can conclude from this that if the Scythians actually performed \nthese sacrifices, the ritual use of an iron sword was grafted onto \nolder rituals involving animals and stone or bronze blades. For \nWolfe, the Great Mother has good reason to disdain iron blades. But \nHerodotus shows her distaste is not for violence or the worship of \nAres. *Even Ares doesn't want the blood of men killed with iron.\n\n*For some reason, iron must be kept away from all sacrificial \nvictims for all the gods. And this seems to hold for the bog people \ntoo.\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6033e848-7a57-382c-3c04-19e5c79f3178@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-03T13:49:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<92531e48-a727-9ff5-2b8f-8b71d7ddf668@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with your first remark. I thought you meant animal sacrifice \ncame first.\n\nAs to your second remark I'm not sure. People get worked up in a \nsacrificial context. It may even be demanded they show a ritualized form \nof anger. Myth, ritual and drama usually went together and some sort of \nstory was being acted out. Often connecting the community to the times \nof the \"beginning\" and effecting? a renewal. An initiation rite being a \nnew birth for instance.\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 14:57 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That may well be the case, but it would have happened long before the \nIron Age. I'm not suggesting that animal sacrifice came first, but \npointing out that the use of stone and bronze blades came first, and \narguing that iron blades were kept apart from those rituals even when \nthey were the center of them, like the akinakes.\n\nAlso, it still holds that victims killed \"in anger\" by any means are \nnot acceptable to a god---not even Ares.\n\n\nOn 4/3/2018 8:14 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is hypothesized in anthropology that human sacrifice came first \nand all other forms of animal and plant sacrifice came later. Animal \nhusbandry and food planting supposedly took place originally within \nthe confines of the ritual-sacrificial system. War among the Aztecs \nwas for the purpose of human sacrifice. Myth further was the \nverbalization of sacrifice and only later took on a life of its own \nas in the Homeric vision of the Gods.\n\nRene Girard says the sacrificial mechanism of the scape goat is the \nbasis of human culture. He analyses Greek tragedy and the Gospels as \nforms of discourse in which this mechanism reaches the threshold of \ncultural awareness after millennia of simply being lived. The \ndevelopment of human culture is basically the evolution of the \nsacrificial mechanism and the way it structures and channels \nviolence. It suffuses all aspects of culture and has its own logic of \ndifferentiation. Some classicists consider his theory 'gnostic' \nbecause it is a master key to analyzing human culture and not \nhistorically specific. Girard has developed the theory of mimetic \ndesire and violence as the core of his anthropological and literary \ncriticism.\n\nI guess \"it's all about Eve\".\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 02:55 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Expanding on my comments of yesterday (apologies if they were \nlong-winded), because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to \nthe Christian syncretistic theme.\n\nMarc goes on to quote Herodotus about the Scythians' human \nsacrifices to Ares:\n\">[62] ? [I]n Ares? case things are different. In every district, \nwithin each province, a sanctuary has been constructed to Ares. ? \nBundles of sticks are piled together into a block about three stades \nby three stades wide, but not so high off the ground. — Each year \nthey add a hundred and fifty cart-loads of sticks, to make up for \nthe subsidence caused by the winter’s storms. On top of this \nstructure the inhabitants of each district plan an ancient iron \n*akinakes* [a small, straight sword of Scythia and Persia], which is \ntaken to represent Ares. The festival takes place once a year, and \nat it they offer this *akinakes* more domestic animals and horses as \nsacrificial victims than all the other gods receive. They also \nsacrifice prisoners of war to this *akinakes*, though the method is \ndifferent from when domestic animals are the victims. One prisoner \nin every hundred is selected; they pour wine over the prisoners? \nheads, cut their throats so that the blood spills into a jar, and \nthen carry the jars up on to the pile of sticks and pour the blood \nover the *akinakes*. While the jars are being taken up there, \nsomething else is happening down below, by the side of the \nsanctuary: they cut off the right arms of all the slaughtered men ? \nthe whole arm, from shoulder to hand — and hurl them into the air. \nThen they sacrifice all the rest of the victims and leave. The arms \nare left lying wherever they fall, detached from the corpses. (255)\"\n\nOne can't help but notice that there are really only two slight but \nvery deliberate---and almost illogical---differences between the \nsacrifices of animals and these humans. I say \"illogical\" because it \nseems easier to simply kill the victim directly with the sacred \nsword, as Elric would wield Stormbringer. But:\n(1) Wine is poured on the victim's head. Maybe this is in token \nexchange for the blood? Is wine then a kind of blood equivalent, \nwith life symbolism?\n(2) The victim's drained blood is applied to the iron sword rather \nthan the reverse.\n\nSo what is so important about this overly complicated means of \ngetting blood in contact with the iron sword? Truly, this is hardly \na \"different method\" at all. The victims are slashed at the throat \nand drained as in any animal sacrifice. It is plainly important that \nthis part of the normal cult ritual be maintained; it may satisfy \nunknown requirements, it may be the oldest part of the ritual, it \nmay have a specific magic effect, or all of these.\n\nBut the description also suggests that the victims' throats are *not \n*cut with iron blades, because that would logically interfere with \nthe most sacred, symbolic, and difficult part of the ritual: \napplying the blood to the sword. Especially if iron has its own \nmagical significance, you'd want to keep it away from the blood. \nWhatever value the blood carries must reach the sword intact, as \nthough iron interferes with it in a way that stone and bronze do \nnot. And since the soul departs the body long before the blood \nreaches the sword, you have to wonder if this segregation also \nserves some sort of hygienic purpose regarding the spirit.\n\nWe can conclude from this that if the Scythians actually performed \nthese sacrifices, the ritual use of an iron sword was grafted onto \nolder rituals involving animals and stone or bronze blades. For \nWolfe, the Great Mother has good reason to disdain iron blades. But \nHerodotus shows her distaste is not for violence or the worship of \nAres. *Even Ares doesn't want the blood of men killed with iron.\n\n*For some reason, iron must be kept away from all sacrificial \nvictims for all the gods. And this seems to hold for the bog people \ntoo.\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-04-03T13:58:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<5adf051e-e087-8c85-df9b-632ae4d2702f@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://web.archive.org/web/20140725102806/http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html\n\nLet’s try that one. I am not really certain - he is not quick to answer\ncorrespondence lately but appears to be in decent spirits in a recent\nEaster family picture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, April 3, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:\nI cannot reach the site.\n\nHow is Wolfe's health by the way?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-04-03T14:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "<9cb75891-71a5-2699-8c7a-93d96723f4d0@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am of course speaking in extreme generalities. But \"in anger\" usually means fighting, and rituals have to be followed carefully to count as such. Generally a sacrifice is understood to be carried out without overt hostility, even if the victim is a slave, a deformed person, or a king. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On April 3, 2018 9:49:18 AM EDT, Ab de Vos wrote:\nI agree with your first remark. I thought you meant animal sacrifice \ncame first.\n\nAs to your second remark I'm not sure. People get worked up in a \nsacrificial context. It may even be demanded they show a ritualized\nform \nof anger. Myth, ritual and drama usually went together and some sort of\n\nstory was being acted out. Often connecting the community to the times \nof the \"beginning\" and effecting? a renewal. An initiation rite being a\n\nnew birth for instance.\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 14:57 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That may well be the case, but it would have happened long before the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Iron Age. I'm not suggesting that animal sacrifice came first, but \npointing out that the use of stone and bronze blades came first, and \narguing that iron blades were kept apart from those rituals even when" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "they were the center of them, like the akinakes.\n\nAlso, it still holds that victims killed \"in anger\" by any means are \nnot acceptable to a god---not even Ares.\n\n\nOn 4/3/2018 8:14 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is hypothesized in anthropology that human sacrifice came first \nand all other forms of animal and plant sacrifice came later. Animal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "husbandry and food planting supposedly took place originally within \nthe confines of the ritual-sacrificial system. War among the Aztecs \nwas for the purpose of human sacrifice. Myth further was the \nverbalization of sacrifice and only later took on a life of its own \nas in the Homeric vision of the Gods.\n\nRene Girard says the sacrificial mechanism of the scape goat is the \nbasis of human culture. He analyses Greek tragedy and the Gospels as" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "forms of discourse in which this mechanism reaches the threshold of \ncultural awareness after millennia of simply being lived. The \ndevelopment of human culture is basically the evolution of the \nsacrificial mechanism and the way it structures and channels \nviolence. It suffuses all aspects of culture and has its own logic\nof \ndifferentiation. Some classicists consider his theory 'gnostic' \nbecause it is a master key to analyzing human culture and not \nhistorically specific. Girard has developed the theory of mimetic \ndesire and violence as the core of his anthropological and literary \ncriticism.\n\nI guess \"it's all about Eve\".\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 02:55 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Expanding on my comments of yesterday (apologies if they were \nlong-winded), because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to \nthe Christian syncretistic theme.\n\nMarc goes on to quote Herodotus about the Scythians' human \nsacrifices to Ares:\n\">[62] ? [I]n Ares? case things are different. In every district, \nwithin each province, a sanctuary has been constructed to Ares. ? \nBundles of sticks are piled together into a block about three\nstades \nby three stades wide, but not so high off the ground. — Each year \nthey add a hundred and fifty cart-loads of sticks, to make up for \nthe subsidence caused by the winter’s storms. On top of this \nstructure the inhabitants of each district plan an ancient iron \n*akinakes* [a small, straight sword of Scythia and Persia], which\nis \ntaken to represent Ares. The festival takes place once a year, and \nat it they offer this *akinakes* more domestic animals and horses\nas \nsacrificial victims than all the other gods receive. They also \nsacrifice prisoners of war to this *akinakes*, though the method is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "different from when domestic animals are the victims. One prisoner \nin every hundred is selected; they pour wine over the prisoners? \nheads, cut their throats so that the blood spills into a jar, and \nthen carry the jars up on to the pile of sticks and pour the blood \nover the *akinakes*. While the jars are being taken up there, \nsomething else is happening down below, by the side of the \nsanctuary: they cut off the right arms of all the slaughtered men ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "the whole arm, from shoulder to hand — and hurl them into the air. \nThen they sacrifice all the rest of the victims and leave. The arms" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "are left lying wherever they fall, detached from the corpses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(255)\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "One can't help but notice that there are really only two slight but" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "very deliberate---and almost illogical---differences between the \nsacrifices of animals and these humans. I say \"illogical\" because\nit \nseems easier to simply kill the victim directly with the sacred \nsword, as Elric would wield Stormbringer. But:\n(1) Wine is poured on the victim's head. Maybe this is in token \nexchange for the blood? Is wine then a kind of blood equivalent, \nwith life symbolism?\n(2) The victim's drained blood is applied to the iron sword rather \nthan the reverse.\n\nSo what is so important about this overly complicated means of \ngetting blood in contact with the iron sword? Truly, this is hardly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "a \"different method\" at all. The victims are slashed at the throat \nand drained as in any animal sacrifice. It is plainly important\nthat \nthis part of the normal cult ritual be maintained; it may satisfy \nunknown requirements, it may be the oldest part of the ritual, it \nmay have a specific magic effect, or all of these.\n\nBut the description also suggests that the victims' throats are\n*not \n*cut with iron blades, because that would logically interfere with \nthe most sacred, symbolic, and difficult part of the ritual: \napplying the blood to the sword. Especially if iron has its own \nmagical significance, you'd want to keep it away from the blood. \nWhatever value the blood carries must reach the sword intact, as \nthough iron interferes with it in a way that stone and bronze do \nnot. And since the soul departs the body long before the blood \nreaches the sword, you have to wonder if this segregation also \nserves some sort of hygienic purpose regarding the spirit.\n\nWe can conclude from this that if the Scythians actually performed \nthese sacrifices, the ritual use of an iron sword was grafted onto \nolder rituals involving animals and stone or bronze blades. For \nWolfe, the Great Mother has good reason to disdain iron blades. But" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Herodotus shows her distaste is not for violence or the worship of \nAres. *Even Ares doesn't want the blood of men killed with iron.\n\n*For some reason, iron must be kept away from all sacrificial \nvictims for all the gods. And this seems to hold for the bog people" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "too.\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus\nsoftware.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84b65cba-f5e3-3a72-1863-42cf909ab846@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-03T16:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks,\n\nThis link works.\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 15:58 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://web.archive.org/web/20140725102806/http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html \n \n\n\nLet’s try that one. I am not really certain - he is not quick to \nanswer correspondence lately but appears to be in decent spirits in a \nrecent Easter family picture.\n\n\nOn Tuesday, April 3, 2018, Ab de Vos > wrote:\n\n I cannot reach the site.\n\n How is Wolfe's health by the way?\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3688fff8-cf08-0c4a-441d-3444cc25720f@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-04-03T17:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier of Sidon writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or possibly all at one as in the scenario that a deformed slave is a \nsubstitute for the divine king who is about to be slaughtered. Mock \nfighting is often a part of the proceedings like games. I suppose it all \nhas to be part of the rite and not external to it. There is a gray area \nin between, I think, to allow activities to evolve separately, less \ntightly bound to ritual and becoming more or less independent.\n\nAs for the blood and wine they are both libations. There is the \nchristian equivalence in mass. Also when an ox? is sacrificed in Homer \nsome grain is poured over its head. An atonement perhaps, a small \nsacrifice within a big one? If the sword represents Ares it seems that \nthe blood is dedicated to the sword. Wielding the sword is dedicating \nthe sword to the act of killing. Bringing the blood to the sword is like \npaying a tribute to a king. Maybe they threw the arms in the air to \nimitate the battlefield as well as by pouring wine-blood.\n\nThe process of making wine is a violent one because the grape has to be \ndestroyed for the wine to be made. The same goes for grain and bread. \nAll these activities are originally connected to the dying divinities \nlater to be reborn and often suffering dismemberment.\n\nYou must be familiar with the term berserker rage. Even now some people \naround here have as their name Berserkeris. It is from the german past \nmeaning an extatic state of divine possession of a warrior which enables \nhim to keep on fighting even heavily wounded. Comparable to the menos of \nAchilles or his battlefield rage when his looks alone would scare his? \nopponents. Is this connected to Ares?\n\n\nOp 3-4-2018 om 16:48 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "even if the victim is a slave, a deformed person, or a king" } ] } ] }