{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6791", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6791, "subject": "some help? Mary King (famous equestrian),\n Riverman (famous stud horse),\n and horse races vs. the Odal rune (inheritance) in Sorcerer's house", "messages": 3, "voices": 1, "first": "2018-05-04T14:11:49+00:00", "last": "2018-05-09T16:05:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-05-04T14:11:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some help? Mary King (famous equestrian),\n Riverman (famous stud horse),\n and horse races vs. the Odal rune (inheritance) in Sorcerer's house", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So ... I am almost done with the Sorcerer's House writeup, but Gene has\ndoubled down on obscurity here. As those who have read the book know, a\nspectral horse appears in the same chapter as Kiki, right in the middle of\nthe book, when Bax has a vision of himself on the side of the road after\nhis brother has assaulted a police officer (Kate Finn) and been arrested.\n\nFor those familiar with my thesis, you will recall that I argue that the\nhouse visions are born of a kikimora spirit, and that she sometimes wears a\nfoxes appearance, but that there are two such spirits, one more malevolent\nthan the other, with the benevolent one being Martha Murrey (who says she\nis a \"scarecrow\" after traveling - the kikimora name can mean \"scarecrow).\nMartha is 40 years old in appearance, Bax is 40 years old, the butler\nappeared to cause havoc in the town 40 years ago - the kikimora can be born\nwhen a mother or child dies in childbirth, and those things add up pretty\nnicely.\n\nThe Odal Rune looks like a fish and is found on all three rings of the\ntriangles.( ? )\nIt means inheritance. Since I argue that in patterns of three two are\nsupernatural are not real while one is real, the Odal rune on the inner\nring suggests to me that the Skotos strip is a real inheritance (i.e. - he\nis the son of Alexander Skotos and maybe Mary King, who dies in childbirth\nand gives birth to the spirit of ... (?) (They appear in letter 20 BEFORE\nMary King's context is introduced, as nebulous as it is - she shows up to\ndisappear by the cemetery, on the same night Kiki appeared to say that she\ngoes to the river to wash her shroud.)\n\nBoth Mary and Skotos showing up in the same letter, even though Bax\ndisavows any relationship, suggests to me that they might be Bax's real\nparents, and that the Skotos strip is his real inheritance, though his\nmother would then have died long ago - and how Kiki, Lupine, Winkle, and\nMartha Murrey map onto that is still a headache. HERE COMES THE BIG\nPROBLEM - his first hand switch occurs when he asks Martha Murrey about\ngambling and the horse races. He mentions gambling quite a bit, even\nassociating Skotos with Sandy Scott, whom he knew from Churchill Downs.\nWELL ...\n\nMary King, the only famous one I could find, is a well known and successful\nequestrian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_King_(equestrian)\n\nRiverman is a famous and successful race winner and sire of champion\nhorses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverman\n\nThat's a really, really big coincidence. So ... funding the house through\nhorse races, which would pretty much eliminate the possibility that\nsomething happened forty years ago that caused these spirits to be born\n(Emlyen and Iuean are internal visions manifested by the Kikimora in this\nreading - whatever happens to them (hit three times with a stick)\nimmediately happens to Bad (hit back three times with a stick)) VS. Mary\nKing and Skotos as his parents, with something occurring which precipitated\nthe birth of a Kikimora spirit in childbirth 40 years ago ...\n\nOne more thing. Manjushri says that he must team up with the woman \"he\"\nstruck to come out ahead. Bax notices a falseness to Manjushri's claims\nabout what is holy (because it is a kind of deceitful illusion, like the\nfacefox), but then teams up with Kate Finn so that charges are not pressed.\nKate Finn appears right after the first dismemberment and also, I think,\ndrops him off when he finds another body part at his house. This team up is\nmore than finding George in the house - it is so that he can keep George\nfrom getting a record when he takes George's place. She also sees\nGoldwurm's tower from the window during their search (I am pretty sure, but\nwill review this). Martha Murrey says that she had a friend named Nina\nO'Brien who was run down in the street but people only cared about the\nHound of Horror stories ... If she is a spirit that lingers forty years\npassed, then ... who is Nina O'Brien and when did she die? (this does\ncreate a weird link between the deceased friend of Martha and the hound of\nhorror, but that is nebulous). Emlyn winds up in a pact with Lupine - does\nthis parallel Bax's final alliance with Kate Finn? Is the Irish connection\nof O'Brien and Finn enough to parallel those two? (i.e. - is Kate Finn the\nface of Lupine like Martha Murrey might be the face of the benevolent\nKikimora?) Are we to assume that the spirits also have triple identities,\ntwo assumed and one true? If so, how does that work?\n\nCould Mary King and Riverman being associated with horse racing really be\ncoincidence? It seems to me that everything except that is explained by the\nKikimora - EXCEPT the dinner scene after he meets Kiki in which Cathy Ruth\ncomes over and the gnome like jeweler seems to know Skotos but own't talk\nabout it. Is that a dream vision, too, like his sojourn through his\nfireplace and out his window (the kikimora brings vivid dreams)? If so,\nwhat the heck is up with Cathy Ruth? I really want to square these details\naway before I close out the essay." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-05-04T14:18:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some help? Mary King (famous equestrian),\n Riverman (famous stud horse),\n and horse races vs. the Odal rune (inheritance) in Sorcerer's house", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "autocorrect and poor typing may cause some confusion there - triannulus was\nreplaced by triangle, Bax always auto-corrects to Bad. Sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 7:11 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSo ... I am almost done with the Sorcerer's House writeup, but Gene has\ndoubled down on obscurity here. As those who have read the book know, a\nspectral horse appears in the same chapter as Kiki, right in the middle of\nthe book, when Bax has a vision of himself on the side of the road after\nhis brother has assaulted a police officer (Kate Finn) and been arrested.\n\nFor those familiar with my thesis, you will recall that I argue that the\nhouse visions are born of a kikimora spirit, and that she sometimes wears a\nfoxes appearance, but that there are two such spirits, one more malevolent\nthan the other, with the benevolent one being Martha Murrey (who says she\nis a \"scarecrow\" after traveling - the kikimora name can mean \"scarecrow).\nMartha is 40 years old in appearance, Bax is 40 years old, the butler\nappeared to cause havoc in the town 40 years ago - the kikimora can be born\nwhen a mother or child dies in childbirth, and those things add up pretty\nnicely.\n\nThe Odal Rune looks like a fish and is found on all three rings of the\ntriangles.( ? )\nIt means inheritance. Since I argue that in patterns of three two are\nsupernatural are not real while one is real, the Odal rune on the inner\nring suggests to me that the Skotos strip is a real inheritance (i.e. - he\nis the son of Alexander Skotos and maybe Mary King, who dies in childbirth\nand gives birth to the spirit of ... (?) (They appear in letter 20 BEFORE\nMary King's context is introduced, as nebulous as it is - she shows up to\ndisappear by the cemetery, on the same night Kiki appeared to say that she\ngoes to the river to wash her shroud.)\n\nBoth Mary and Skotos showing up in the same letter, even though Bax\ndisavows any relationship, suggests to me that they might be Bax's real\nparents, and that the Skotos strip is his real inheritance, though his\nmother would then have died long ago - and how Kiki, Lupine, Winkle, and\nMartha Murrey map onto that is still a headache. HERE COMES THE BIG\nPROBLEM - his first hand switch occurs when he asks Martha Murrey about\ngambling and the horse races. He mentions gambling quite a bit, even\nassociating Skotos with Sandy Scott, whom he knew from Churchill Downs.\nWELL ...\n\nMary King, the only famous one I could find, is a well known and\nsuccessful equestrian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_King_(\nequestrian)\n\nRiverman is a famous and successful race winner and sire of champion\nhorses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverman\n\nThat's a really, really big coincidence. So ... funding the house through\nhorse races, which would pretty much eliminate the possibility that\nsomething happened forty years ago that caused these spirits to be born\n(Emlyen and Iuean are internal visions manifested by the Kikimora in this\nreading - whatever happens to them (hit three times with a stick)\nimmediately happens to Bad (hit back three times with a stick)) VS. Mary\nKing and Skotos as his parents, with something occurring which precipitated\nthe birth of a Kikimora spirit in childbirth 40 years ago ...\n\nOne more thing. Manjushri says that he must team up with the woman \"he\"\nstruck to come out ahead. Bax notices a falseness to Manjushri's claims\nabout what is holy (because it is a kind of deceitful illusion, like the\nfacefox), but then teams up with Kate Finn so that charges are not pressed.\nKate Finn appears right after the first dismemberment and also, I think,\ndrops him off when he finds another body part at his house. This team up is\nmore than finding George in the house - it is so that he can keep George\nfrom getting a record when he takes George's place. She also sees\nGoldwurm's tower from the window during their search (I am pretty sure, but\nwill review this). Martha Murrey says that she had a friend named Nina\nO'Brien who was run down in the street but people only cared about the\nHound of Horror stories ... If she is a spirit that lingers forty years\npassed, then ... who is Nina O'Brien and when did she die? (this does\ncreate a weird link between the deceased friend of Martha and the hound of\nhorror, but that is nebulous). Emlyn winds up in a pact with Lupine - does\nthis parallel Bax's final alliance with Kate Finn? Is the Irish connection\nof O'Brien and Finn enough to parallel those two? (i.e. - is Kate Finn the\nface of Lupine like Martha Murrey might be the face of the benevolent\nKikimora?) Are we to assume that the spirits also have triple identities,\ntwo assumed and one true? If so, how does that work?\n\nCould Mary King and Riverman being associated with horse racing really be\ncoincidence? It seems to me that everything except that is explained by the\nKikimora - EXCEPT the dinner scene after he meets Kiki in which Cathy Ruth\ncomes over and the gnome like jeweler seems to know Skotos but own't talk\nabout it. Is that a dream vision, too, like his sojourn through his\nfireplace and out his window (the kikimora brings vivid dreams)? If so,\nwhat the heck is up with Cathy Ruth? I really want to square these details\naway before I close out the essay." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-05-09T16:05:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some help? Mary King (famous equestrian),\n Riverman (famous stud horse),\n and horse races vs. the Odal rune (inheritance) in Sorcerer's house", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for responding Jeffery. Finn also means \"fair,\" which could be\ncontrasted with Skotos (Darkness), Murrey (dark purple almost black) and\nMr. Black.\n\nIn my opinion Wolfe became slightly too minimalist post 2010 in presenting\nthese puzzle pieces - it's almost impossible to faithfully reconstruct the\nevents from 40 years ago with confidence in this text. Mary King, who is\nemphasized as an important part of the puzzle, is given like three lines\ndedicated to her in the book, during which she is presented far before she\nappears, and then appears only to disappear near a cemetery and say she is\nheaded the same place Bax is headed ... The text even says details about\nher will be important \"no matter how nebulous\" - gee.\n\nWhile I am confident in my reading of Home Fires, I had to make the biggest\nleap ever to understand who Coleman Baum was - there wasn't enough in the\ntext to train me. Consider the difference in Fifth Head of Cerberus: the\nnames of three women on St. Crois - Pheadria, Nerissa, and Urania. When I\nfound that Phaedria was a type of moth, I KNEW that Nerissa and Urania\nwould be moths or butterflies BEFORE I EVER LOOKED THEM UP. People say that\nyou can force Wolfe into any pattern, but you simply can't. I couldn't do\nthis with character names in any other of his novellas, and knew with\ncertainty that it would be so, because I had already internalized the\npatterns in that particular text. Extra research is just verification of a\nconclusion reached through other means.\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepora_nerissa\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urania_sloanus\n\nI already knew these women had a metamorphic stage to their life cycle and\nI didn't even really need to do that extra textual research. Many many\ntimes I know that what I am looking up for verification is not apophenia\nbecause the text has already taught me I will find what I expect once I\nliteralize metaphors or switch them to ironic statements and follow them to\ntheir logical conclusions. I was not surprised to find that on the island\nof Philae where Latro ends up in the last Soldier book all of the symbols\nof the Egyptian Gods save to Horus were erased by Christian iconoclasts in\nhistory - it was exactly what I was expecting from the text, though it\nisn't in the book.\n\nBut the introduction of a different name here and a friend of Martha dying\nin such a way becomes very difficult to integrate into a book already built\non a triple structure that occasionally seems to violate it, with Cathy\nRuth and Kate Finn being the two most obvious and egregious \"outliers\" that\nmight just be another manifestation of the triple structure - right after\nwe get the warning that of what seems to be \"She comes\" from Winkle, Cathy\nRuth calls and enters the text - but that She could be lupine, kiki, mary\nking, martha, Madame Orizia, or even Kate Finn, and those identities could\nblur into one another.\n\nThe final dinner at Lakeshore, where the waitress can't seem to remember\nthat Bax orders his food done a particular way, and Cathy Ruth and her\njeweler soon-to-be father in law come over, she finding the note about the\nwerewolf and the jeweler refusing to answer how he knows Skotos, also seems\nto be very dreamlike, but how can we integrate these characters into the\nwaking world? The fractures here require some serious extra-textual\nassumptions to force into a linear pattern at the finest level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 04-May-18 9:11 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Martha Murrey says that she had a friend named Nina O'Brien who was run\ndown in the street but people only cared about the Hound of Horror stories\n... If she is a spirit that lingers forty years passed, then ... who is\nNina O'Brien and when did she die? (this does create a weird link between\nthe deceased friend of Martha and the hound of horror, but that is\nnebulous). Emlyn winds up in a pact with Lupine - does this parallel Bax's\nfinal alliance with Kate Finn? Is the Irish connection of O'Brien and Finn\nenough to parallel those two? (i.e. - is Kate Finn the face of Lupine like\nMartha Murrey might be the face of the benevolent Kikimora?) Are we to\nassume that the spirits also have triple identities, two assumed and one\ntrue? If so, how does that work?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Nina O'Brien was pregnant, perhaps there were two spirits generated at\nthe one time. Also, Finn may be Finnish rather than Irish, since kikimora\nis also Urgo-Finnish.\n\n\n--\nJeffery Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nRIP - A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://clueland.com/demo/interact/ >" } ] } ] }