{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/68",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
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  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 68,
    "subject": "Severian as Christian (?)",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1997-06-25T01:30:03+00:00",
    "last": "1997-06-25T01:30:03+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0002-0112@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jim Jordan",
        "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net"
      },
      "date": "1997-06-25T01:30:03+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Severian as Christian (?)",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Discussion transferred from Whorl list."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Slimey Alga wrote:\nRatty,\n\nI define a Christian as someone who believes that he or she will attain\neternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Severian has never heard of Jesus\nChrist, and he himself has brought salvation (through destruction) to Urth."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "\tWhoa! Agia refers to the Theoanthropos in 1:21. Also, in that chapter the\nwoman missionary (Marie - Mary) is reading from the Urth equivalent of\nDeuteronomy 34. (1:21 = Shadow, ch. 21)."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "How does that make him a Christian (please don't cite Wolfe's interview\nsince he isn't here to defend what he actually meant, and I think we'd\nagree that he is tricky)? Perhaps you are using Christian in the\nold-fashioned sense of being a good person, or \"one of us.\" I can't accept\nthat, having known many good people of other faiths (or none). I can accept\nSeverian as a Christ avatar, however. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "\tI can't, but see below. Christians are \"little Christs,\" and Severian is\nsuch. \n\n\nKevin writes:\n\nI would argue (respectfully, of course) that regardless of Wolfe's\nintentionality, Severian is for my money,  a Christ figure, without\nbeing a Christian (in the sense of modern christianity).  Not to\nbelabour the point, but Severian healed the sick, raised the dead\n(and for good measure saves humanity entirely by restarting the red\nsun) and, like the Fisher King, was lame.  Obviously there is no \ndirect correspondence between all Severian's actions and those of \nChrist - I think Wolfe is writing much more than a mere allegory.  \n\nNutria: I agree that Severian's story is not an allegory of Christ's life\nand work. Rather, Severian is Christ-like in the way Christians are, except\nthat in the case of Severian, Wolfe is painting a very large canvas.\n\n\nKevin: Silk, on the other hand, is much farther removed from the miraculous \ntradition that Severian embodies.  Silk strikes me as a penitent and \ntruthful man who gradually discovers that the tradition he followed \nis not the embodiment of goodness that he had taken it to be, and \nmust discover a new path of enlightenment (or perhaps have one thrust \nupon him, by revelation) - perhaps more similar to Paul than Christ.\n\nNutria: Quite so, but as I pointed out in my first posting to Whorllist,\nthe story of Silk IS allegorically based on the life and work of Jesus.\nThus, Severian and Silk are each Christlike, but in quite different ways.\n\n\nKevin: Mythologically inclined folks might want to comment that just as\nSeverian is a Christ figure, he also represents (ala Joe Campbell) a\nheroic tradition that is far broader and older than Christianity\nproper, and I have no problem with that. \n\nNutria: No problem from me here. Both Silk and Severian include other\nelements also.\n\n\nRock wrote:\n\nWith respect, I flat-out don't understand how it can be so. A Christian\nis, by definition, a follower of Jesus Christ. (This is the minimum\ncriterion, you can pile on as much theological baggage as you wish.)\nChrist is unknown in Severian's universe, so Severian cannot follow him.\nTherefore, Severian is not a Christian.\n\nNutria: Nope. See the reference to the Theoanthropos above, and the\nentirety of 1:21. Now, we certainly aren't told by Severian much of\nanything about his religious beliefs, and he certainly has a long way to go\nin his own personal life -- but Wolfe routinely conceals some of the most\nimportant stuff. We do see Severian offer the occasional prayer to the\nIncreate/Pancreator (God), and we do know that there is a God-man Savior in\nthe history of Urth, and we do know that there were once missionaries\nproclaiming the gospel. Now, is there some point in the narrative at which\nSeverian has a conversion experience? If there is, it is as well concealed\nas the identity of his mother. And even if no such experience can be\ndiscerned in the narrative, that does not mean Severian did not know about\nthe Christ of the Urth universe. \n\n\nRock: There is, perhaps, some ambiguity in what Wolfe told you. Perhaps he\nmeant that though Severian is in no way meant to _be_ Christ or someone\nlike Christ (this would make the New Sun books heretical, afteer all),\nhe is trying to live a Christ-like life. You don't have to be a\nChristian to do this--you don't even have to know who Christ is. But if\nyou are doing it, then you may be said to have a \"Christian characer\". \n\nNutria: I think he meant more. We did discuss it at some length. He means\nthat the Original Holy Life lived by Jesus Christ is being extended in\nSeverian's own life in the same way it is extended in the lives of\nChristians. Severian is a man who is in the process of learning what it\nmeans to trust God and do right things. \n\n\nRostrum writes:\n\nOthers have pointed out that Severian seems to fill the \"Christ figure\" \ndefinition in several ways (working miracles, saving the world), but the\nthings that most often cause a character to be compared to Christ are\nsacrificial death or suffering for others and some form of death, burial,\nand resurrection.  Using those two criteria, I'd say Silk (ObWhorl!) fits\nthe bill for \"Christ figure\" more than Severian, and neither one fits as\nwell as, say, Tom Joad in _The Grapes of Wrath_ (trying to dredge up a\n\"Christ figure\" from high school English classes and probably getting the\nname wrong) or Tolkein's Aragorn.\n\nNutria: I agree. Silk's life actually tracks the life of Jesus, while\nSeverian's does not. Now, another dimension of that may be that Silk is a\ncleric, while Severian is not. \n\n\nRostrum: Wolfe may also be thinking that, to be a \"Christ figure\" in the Urth\nmultiverse, one would have to literally be the Increate (aka the Outsider) \nIncarnate.  Maybe, as a Christian, Wolfe dislikes the idea of any\ncharacter but Jesus being called a \"Christ figure\". \n\nNutria: I agree. \n\n\nTo Mantis and others interested:\n\n\tAlong the lines of the possibility of the Spaceport's also being a\nperverse Cathedral, note:\n\n\tWitches Keep as perverse Convent of nuns.\n\tBear Tower as perverse Franciscans (Francis and the animals).\n\tSo, does St. Catherine play an important role in any of the monastic orders?\n\n\tAlso, notice 1:21, sixth paragraph, where Severian says that the\nmissionary church hut is the bright equivalent of his own dark tower.\n\n\tFinally, a possible subtlety: Both Father Inire and the Isangoma (1:20 &\n21) are looking for a fish. The word \"fish\" is capitalized in the first\nstory. Both stories are about people other than the narrator. The Fish is a\nsymbol of Christ and the Church. Father Inire is calling the Fish into\nexistence from nothingness, implying that the Church is a reflection of\nNothing. This would clearly be a counterfeit. Isangoma's nephew looks for a\nfish, thinks he sees the Fisher King, and then sees a woman's face\nsuperimposed on it. The Fisher King is Christ, and the woman's face is the\nface of Christ in the world through the Church. Isangoma, however, is not\nready to convert. He worships the Proud One, not the Humble One (the\nTheoanthropos).\n\tIt is immediately after Isangoma refers to Numen, the Proud One, that Agia\nrefers to the Theoanthropos. The noumenal is the beyond, the ineffable and\nunknowable. In Christ (the God-man), the Noumenal is made tangible and is\nrevealed, but not as Proud, rather as Humble.\n\tBTW, I very much enjoyed your fine essay on the Garden of Endless Sleep.\nAll I would add, by way of asking what you think, is that this Garden would\nbe the Garden of Eden, and the avern (from another world) would be the Tree\nof the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which threatens to kill.\n\tI was not persuaded by the other two essays in the same collection, though\nI do think he is on to something.\n\nJust some grist for our collective Mill.\n\nNutria"
        }
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}