{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6803", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6803, "subject": "Typhon's concessions", "messages": 20, "voices": 5, "first": "2018-09-04T01:27:40+00:00", "last": "2019-08-24T21:47:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1536024460.101634@webmail.mtecom.net>", "from": { "name": "incanto at mtecom.net", "address": "incanto at mtecom.net" }, "date": "2018-09-04T01:27:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Readers,\n \nWhen Typhon takes Severian to the head of his mountain, he demands that Severain must swear utter submission to him on the claw. I have two questions about this. First, why must Typhon require Severian to hand over the claw at first, then accede to his reluctance and allow him to simply display it in his own hand, rather than just taking it from him? Second, Typhon cajoles S by saying, \"It is no more than a form we must follow.\" Why must Typhon follow any form at all? Does Typhon indirectly acknowledge a power greater than his own to which obeisance is owed? If he were a tyrant like those in our own culture, he may very well do lip service to religious dictates; but here, it seems that for him there is necessity. Any ideas?\n \nFred Weiner " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-04T04:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "<1536024460.101634@webmail.mtecom.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this scene is so allegorical that it seems to be highly predicated\nupon the thematic implications of the temptation of Christ in the\nwilderness. Much like the adversary in Job, who abides by an agreement with\nGod, the Satan in the wilderness is concerned with subverting the will of\nhis prey rather than in purely destroying him by force. For the plot itself\nthis has little relevance, but the theme relies upon an examination of\nchoice even in the face of unbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires\nof the flesh and maintain control. So ... Typhon is not merely Typhon here,\nbut an echo of that particular theological moment, even down to offering\nthe same exact things to Severian. Allegory is occasionally not a great fit\nfor realistic novels - Typhon has no reason to acknowledge a greater power\nsave that Satan knows the only way he can truly defeat a greater power is\nby proving that the authority vested in the man he tempts is ill-placed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, September 3, 2018, wrote:\nReaders,\n\n\n\nWhen Typhon takes Severian to the head of his mountain, he demands that\nSeverain must swear utter submission to him on the claw. I have two\nquestions about this. First, why must Typhon require Severian to hand over\nthe claw at first, then accede to his reluctance and allow him to simply\ndisplay it in his own hand, rather than just taking it from him? Second,\nTyphon cajoles S by saying, \"It is no more than a form we must follow.\" Why\nmust Typhon follow any form at all? Does Typhon indirectly acknowledge a\npower greater than his own to which obeisance is owed? If he were a tyrant\nlike those in our own culture, he may very well do lip service to religious\ndictates; but here, it seems that for him there is necessity. Any ideas?\n\n\n\nFred Weiner" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-04T04:28:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, I find wolfe’s setup of the problem of evil and death to be\noverwhelmingly orthodox in its theodicy, but readers raised on Naturalism\nrather than Augustine tend, for whatever reason, to see overt manipulation\nin all things rather than freedom in the face of extreme duress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, September 3, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell, this scene is so allegorical that it seems to be highly predicated\nupon the thematic implications of the temptation of Christ in the\nwilderness. Much like the adversary in Job, who abides by an agreement with\nGod, the Satan in the wilderness is concerned with subverting the will of\nhis prey rather than in purely destroying him by force. For the plot itself\nthis has little relevance, but the theme relies upon an examination of\nchoice even in the face of unbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires\nof the flesh and maintain control. So ... Typhon is not merely Typhon here,\nbut an echo of that particular theological moment, even down to offering\nthe same exact things to Severian. Allegory is occasionally not a great fit\nfor realistic novels - Typhon has no reason to acknowledge a greater power\nsave that Satan knows the only way he can truly defeat a greater power is\nby proving that the authority vested in the man he tempts is ill-placed.\n\nOn Monday, September 3, 2018, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Readers,\n\n\n\nWhen Typhon takes Severian to the head of his mountain, he demands that\nSeverain must swear utter submission to him on the claw. I have two\nquestions about this. First, why must Typhon require Severian to hand over\nthe claw at first, then accede to his reluctance and allow him to simply\ndisplay it in his own hand, rather than just taking it from him? Second,\nTyphon cajoles S by saying, \"It is no more than a form we must follow.\" Why\nmust Typhon follow any form at all? Does Typhon indirectly acknowledge a\npower greater than his own to which obeisance is owed? If he were a tyrant\nlike those in our own culture, he may very well do lip service to religious\ndictates; but here, it seems that for him there is necessity. Any ideas?\n\n\n\nFred Weiner" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1536103094.266815587@webmail.mtecom.net>", "from": { "name": "incanto at mtecom.net", "address": "incanto at mtecom.net" }, "date": "2018-09-04T23:18:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the theme relies upon an examination of choice even in the face of unbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires of the flesh and maintain control\n \nWas Christ trying to maintain control? Or was he so firmly resident in the Divine Presence that personal advantage had no traction? And if that is so, is that also Severian's status? It hardly makes your allegorical interpretation less germain. Everyone accepts that Wolfe has written Christ saturated novels." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-04T23:36:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "<1536103094.266815587@webmail.mtecom.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as “fully human” I think it implies that Christ is also capable of\nmaking human mistakes - Adam had, at least according to the most orthodox\nposition, everything he needed to stand firm with his prelapsarian gifts\nbut fell regardless. One of the biggest themes of Urth of the New Sun as\nfar as I can tell is that evil will ultimately serve a purpose (Severian\npasses the trial because his enemies fight for him - he treated them\njustly.) the fall of man, too, allows greater glory in the standing firm of\nChrist against temptation and in salvation. I don’t know how much we want\nto insist that this scene has the same theological implications as Christ’s\nhuman triumph over temptation but it certainly suggests that severian faces\na similar obstacle in denying the needs of the flesh and personal\naggrandizement - Typhon and the adversary both, in the long term, still\nserve th greater good in traditional theodicy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, September 4, 2018, wrote:\n*the theme relies upon an examination of choice even in the face of\nunbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires of the flesh and maintain\ncontrol*\n\n\n\nWas Christ trying to maintain control? Or was he so firmly resident in the\nDivine Presence that personal advantage had no traction? And if that is so,\nis that also Severian's status? It hardly makes your allegorical\ninterpretation less germain. Everyone accepts that Wolfe has written Christ\nsaturated novels." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1536126998.824118834@webmail.mtecom.net>", "from": { "name": "incanto at mtecom.net", "address": "incanto at mtecom.net" }, "date": "2018-09-05T05:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same theological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation\n \nAgree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the Solar Cycle universe a \"quarter turn\" (who knows the exact geometry?) further and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T14:21:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "<1536126998.824118834@webmail.mtecom.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the Universe.\nThis explains the \"archaeological\" approch in the BotNS afterwords, and I\nbelieve that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_ ours, no Fall would\ntake place because Jesus.\n\nThis also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley didn't\npremember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe cycal.\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:14 PM wrote:\n*I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same\ntheological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation*\n\n\n\nAgree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the Solar\nCycle universe a \"quarter turn\" (who knows the exact geometry?) further and\ninto a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T15:36:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have several textual reasons to really not like part of the interview\nwith Jordan where Wolfe goes all in on this previous cycle explanation.\nOne is the universe has Lewis Carroll (direct quotes!), Theseus, the\nmonitor and the Virginia, rudyard kipling, Marcus Aurelius, Christian\nmissionaries, a Catholic Church with Christ voided syncretized with\npaganism, and most of all the key statement by isangoma that Agia and\nSeverian are the results of the choices we make now, the ghosts of the\nfuture in a free universe. Also, in eschatology and genesis nod is told\nwhen he looks for the children of Adam and Eve that he is 50,000 years or\nso too late. Textually the emphasis on New Sun as our future is very\npresent in Shadow and I feel that it is Just as present in Long and Short\nSun with the statements about Allah and the unrecognizable figure of the\ngoddess of purity on green (Mary, for those Catholics out there).\n\nAgainst that ... well, a flood. Time travel backwards exists in this world.\nIf the cycles are this similar why have more than one? I really don’t think\nJesus is absent at all in the solar cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\nActually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the Universe.\nThis explains the \"archaeological\" approch in the BotNS afterwords, and I\nbelieve that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_ ours, no Fall would\ntake place because Jesus.\n\nThis also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley\ndidn't premember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe\ncycal.\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:14 PM wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same\ntheological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation*\n\n\n\nAgree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the\nSolar Cycle universe a \"quarter turn\" (who knows the exact geometry?)\nfurther and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T16:09:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...except, again, that we have auctorial statement that Jesus *is* absent\nfrom the Solar universe.\n\nThat doesn't actually bother me a great deal, as I am inclined to \"the text\nis the text and the author has no privileged position in its\ninterpretation.\" But only inclined...\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:36 AM Marc Aramini wrote:\nI have several textual reasons to really not like part of the interview\nwith Jordan where Wolfe goes all in on this previous cycle explanation.\nOne is the universe has Lewis Carroll (direct quotes!), Theseus, the\nmonitor and the Virginia, rudyard kipling, Marcus Aurelius, Christian\nmissionaries, a Catholic Church with Christ voided syncretized with\npaganism, and most of all the key statement by isangoma that Agia and\nSeverian are the results of the choices we make now, the ghosts of the\nfuture in a free universe. Also, in eschatology and genesis nod is told\nwhen he looks for the children of Adam and Eve that he is 50,000 years or\nso too late. Textually the emphasis on New Sun as our future is very\npresent in Shadow and I feel that it is Just as present in Long and Short\nSun with the statements about Allah and the unrecognizable figure of the\ngoddess of purity on green (Mary, for those Catholics out there).\n\nAgainst that ... well, a flood. Time travel backwards exists in this\nworld. If the cycles are this similar why have more than one? I really\ndon’t think Jesus is absent at all in the solar cycle.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the\nUniverse. This explains the \"archaeological\" approch in the BotNS\nafterwords, and I believe that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_\nours, no Fall would take place because Jesus.\n\nThis also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley\ndidn't premember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe\ncycal.\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:14 PM wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same\ntheological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation*\n\n\n\nAgree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the\nSolar Cycle universe a \"quarter turn\" (who knows the exact geometry?)\nfurther and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T16:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the terrible\nlies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\n...except, again, that we have auctorial statement that Jesus *is* absent\nfrom the Solar universe.\n\nThat doesn't actually bother me a great deal, as I am inclined to \"the\ntext is the text and the author has no privileged position in its\ninterpretation.\" But only inclined...\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:36 AM Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have several textual reasons to really not like part of the interview\nwith Jordan where Wolfe goes all in on this previous cycle explanation.\nOne is the universe has Lewis Carroll (direct quotes!), Theseus, the\nmonitor and the Virginia, rudyard kipling, Marcus Aurelius, Christian\nmissionaries, a Catholic Church with Christ voided syncretized with\npaganism, and most of all the key statement by isangoma that Agia and\nSeverian are the results of the choices we make now, the ghosts of the\nfuture in a free universe. Also, in eschatology and genesis nod is told\nwhen he looks for the children of Adam and Eve that he is 50,000 years or\nso too late. Textually the emphasis on New Sun as our future is very\npresent in Shadow and I feel that it is Just as present in Long and Short\nSun with the statements about Allah and the unrecognizable figure of the\ngoddess of purity on green (Mary, for those Catholics out there).\n\nAgainst that ... well, a flood. Time travel backwards exists in this\nworld. If the cycles are this similar why have more than one? I really\ndon’t think Jesus is absent at all in the solar cycle.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the\nUniverse. This explains the \"archaeological\" approch in the BotNS\nafterwords, and I believe that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_\nours, no Fall would take place because Jesus.\n\nThis also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley\ndidn't premember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe\ncycal.\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:14 PM wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same\ntheological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation*\n\n\n\nAgree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the\nSolar Cycle universe a \"quarter turn\" (who knows the exact geometry?)\nfurther and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T16:21:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who is that criminal on the scaffold in Silk’s enlightenment? Besus, the\nSumerian protochrist? (Gilgamesh joke, sorry)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\n...except, again, that we have auctorial statement that Jesus *is* absent\nfrom the Solar universe.\n\nThat doesn't actually bother me a great deal, as I am inclined to \"the\ntext is the text and the author has no privileged position in its\ninterpretation.\" But only inclined...\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:36 AM Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have several textual reasons to really not like part of the interview\nwith Jordan where Wolfe goes all in on this previous cycle explanation.\nOne is the universe has Lewis Carroll (direct quotes!), Theseus, the\nmonitor and the Virginia, rudyard kipling, Marcus Aurelius, Christian\nmissionaries, a Catholic Church with Christ voided syncretized with\npaganism, and most of all the key statement by isangoma that Agia and\nSeverian are the results of the choices we make now, the ghosts of the\nfuture in a free universe. Also, in eschatology and genesis nod is told\nwhen he looks for the children of Adam and Eve that he is 50,000 years or\nso too late. Textually the emphasis on New Sun as our future is very\npresent in Shadow and I feel that it is Just as present in Long and Short\nSun with the statements about Allah and the unrecognizable figure of the\ngoddess of purity on green (Mary, for those Catholics out there).\n\nAgainst that ... well, a flood. Time travel backwards exists in this\nworld. If the cycles are this similar why have more than one? I really\ndon’t think Jesus is absent at all in the solar cycle.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the\nUniverse. This explains the \"archaeological\" approch in the BotNS\nafterwords, and I believe that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_\nours, no Fall would take place because Jesus.\n\nThis also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley\ndidn't premember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe\ncycal.\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:14 PM wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same\ntheological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation*\n\n\n\nAgree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the\nSolar Cycle universe a \"quarter turn\" (who knows the exact geometry?)\nfurther and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T16:28:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe almost\ndoes - but not to me. I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take out the most\nimportant person in history and have it change nothing in that history. We\nstill get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic Church and drinking matte in\nSouth America and pope’s translation of the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any\nimpact on history if the solar cycle doesn’t have him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWhereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the terrible\nlies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T17:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus. Who\nsays enlightenment only works backwards?\n\nI suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There are\nlittle contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having\nperfect memory *and* truthfulness.\n\nAs for all the things \"just like\" our world; I don't know. That's not easy\nto explain.\n\nH'mmm. What justification do you have for Araminian Exceptionalism (i.e.,\nhe won't \"almost lie\" to you)?\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini wrote:\nMy nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe almost\ndoes - but not to me. I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take out the most\nimportant person in history and have it change nothing in that history. We\nstill get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic Church and drinking matte in\nSouth America and pope’s translation of the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any\nimpact on history if the solar cycle doesn’t have him.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the\nterrible lies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T17:39:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My good looks and penetrating intellect, of course. The aura of Aramini. I\ncall it Marcissism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\nThe criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus. Who\nsays enlightenment only works backwards?\n\nI suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There are\nlittle contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having\nperfect memory *and* truthfulness.\n\nAs for all the things \"just like\" our world; I don't know. That's not easy\nto explain.\n\nH'mmm. What justification do you have for Araminian Exceptionalism (i.e.,\nhe won't \"almost lie\" to you)?\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe\nalmost does - but not to me. I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take out the\nmost important person in history and have it change nothing in that\nhistory. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic Church and\ndrinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of the odyssey.\nJesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar cycle doesn’t have him.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the\nterrible lies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-05T17:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With a few notable exceptions he ignores my questions on his work,\nhonestly. But he won’t misdirect me as I feel some interview questions\nreally border on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nMy good looks and penetrating intellect, of course. The aura of Aramini. I\ncall it Marcissism.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus.\nWho says enlightenment only works backwards?\n\nI suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There are\nlittle contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having\nperfect memory *and* truthfulness.\n\nAs for all the things \"just like\" our world; I don't know. That's not\neasy to explain.\n\nH'mmm. What justification do you have for Araminian Exceptionalism (i.e.,\nhe won't \"almost lie\" to you)?\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nWhen faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.\n\n\nOn Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe\nalmost does - but not to me. I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take out the\nmost important person in history and have it change nothing in that\nhistory. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic Church and\ndrinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of the odyssey.\nJesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar cycle doesn’t have him.\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Whereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the\nterrible lies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!\n\nOn Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<62791e86-602d-0e9c-a562-7a7494c6ad82@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2018-09-07T15:21:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05-Sep-18 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus. \nWho says enlightenment only works backwards?\n\nI suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There \nare little contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having \nperfect memory *and* truthfulness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe\n almost does - but not to me. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The narrative has Sev flat out lying to Vodalus, despite having taken \nhis coin and sworn allegiance, and to his brothers in the Guild.\n\nWhy not to us?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take\n out the most important person in history and have it change nothing\n in that history. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic\n Church and drinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of\n the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar\n cycle doesn’t have him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ordinarily I would agree with that hypothesis but it's based on a \nmaterialistic, objectively causal theory of history. After the first \nEdenic manvantara where everything goes right and mankind begets the \nHierodules before becoming the sublime Hieros and vanishing, the \nHierodules are left behind but use their access to Briah to try to make \nhistory conform to the first go-round so they can follow.\n\nSo if there is no Jesus, they can supply one. If there is no Gospel, \nthey can supply a set. But if there is no LOGOS in them, or him, that's \nup to the Increate. I think Wolfe's notion is that the imitation of \ngoodness can mitigate the crapsack world of the Christless future, but \nit's just not the same and the best you can hope for is someone to \nbecome a vessel for real goodness to influence divine judgement." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeffery Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nRIP - A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://clueland.com/demo/interact/ >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-07T15:39:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "<62791e86-602d-0e9c-a562-7a7494c6ad82@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think the solar cycle is really worse than our reality in nature at\nall, merely a progression of human freedoms. There are news stories every\nday that make the events of the commonwealth, except for the catastrophic\nflood, seem quite close to our world.\n\nRegarding lies- Because time turns our lies into truth - I really the\nlies or misdirections in Wolfe become twisted to reflect a deeper reality.\nAlmost all of my analysis of Wolfe is based on taking everything super\nliterally, or taking some things that seem to be mere dressing as\nallegorical. A dream in WK says “I” knew my baby would die and could not\nbreathe. Able’s story is a projection by Michael into his mother’s dreams -\nthe dreams are real but the “whole story” is a dream. Now at the end of my\nproject I really cant help but see how Wolfe keeps turning badness into\ngood and things that seem to be impossible or inexplicable become logical\nwhen taken literally.\n\nThere are Christian missionaries in the solar cycle. Well then, despite all\nthe over rationalization and hints at a cyclic reality, quite simply, there\nis Christ in the solar cycle. About sixteen years ago everyone kept pulling\nout Occam’s razor on me when I talked about Short Sun. I don’t think\nfiction has to conform to that, but in my mind having no Christ in New Sun\nserves little to no thematic purpose if it is at all involved in\ninterrogating human agency and fate versus free will. Even in my reading of\nWK developing embryo Able has a choice, and the absence of Christ in\nMythgarthr save for that sole cross which comes to resonate with eterne and\nactual birth at least makes a tragic sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, September 7, 2018, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 05-Sep-18 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus.\nWho says enlightenment only works backwards?\n\nI suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There are\nlittle contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having\nperfect memory *and* truthfulness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe\n almost does - but not to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The narrative has Sev flat out lying to Vodalus, despite having taken his\ncoin and sworn allegiance, and to his brothers in the Guild.\n\nWhy not to us?\n\n\n I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take\n out the most important person in history and have it change nothing\n in that history. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic\n Church and drinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of\n the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar\n cycle doesn’t have him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ordinarily I would agree with that hypothesis but it's based on a\nmaterialistic, objectively causal theory of history. After the first Edenic\nmanvantara where everything goes right and mankind begets the Hierodules\nbefore becoming the sublime Hieros and vanishing, the Hierodules are left\nbehind but use their access to Briah to try to make history conform to the\nfirst go-round so they can follow.\n\nSo if there is no Jesus, they can supply one. If there is no Gospel, they\ncan supply a set. But if there is no LOGOS in them, or him, that's up to\nthe Increate. I think Wolfe's notion is that the imitation of goodness can\nmitigate the crapsack world of the Christless future, but it's just not the\nsame and the best you can hope for is someone to become a vessel for real\ngoodness to influence divine judgement.\n\n--\nJeffery Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nRIP - A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://clueland.com/demo/interact/ >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-07T15:49:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“Really think” - might have some other missing words in that sorry" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, September 7, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nRegarding lies- Because time turns our lies into truth - I really the\nlies or misdirections in Wolfe become twisted to reflect a deeper reality.\nAlmost all of my analysis of Wolfe is based on taking everything super\nliterally, or taking some things that seem to be mere dressing as\nallegorical." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39d3218f-c045-c2ac-9867-850492cb6790@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-09-07T16:55:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "<62791e86-602d-0e9c-a562-7a7494c6ad82@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well put. I was thinking along the same lines as far as materialistic \nassumptions about history, but was unable to develop the idea further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/7/2018 11:21 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com wrote:\nOn 05-Sep-18 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously \nJesus. Who says enlightenment only works backwards?\n\nI suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There \nare little contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him \nhaving perfect memory *and* truthfulness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "“On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "?”? My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe\n??? almost does - but not to me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The narrative has Sev flat out lying to Vodalus, despite having taken \nhis coin and sworn allegiance, and to his brothers in the Guild.\n\nWhy not to us?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "??? I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take\n??? out the most important person in history and have it change nothing\n??? in that history. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic\n??? Church and drinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of\n??? the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar\n??? cycle doesn’t have him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ordinarily I would agree with that hypothesis but it's based on a \nmaterialistic, objectively causal theory of history. After the first \nEdenic manvantara where everything goes right and mankind begets the \nHierodules before becoming the sublime Hieros and vanishing, the \nHierodules are left behind but use their access to Briah to try to \nmake history conform to the first go-round so they can follow.\n\nSo if there is no Jesus, they can supply one. If there is no Gospel, \nthey can supply a set. But if there is no LOGOS in them, or him, \nthat's up to the Increate. I think Wolfe's notion is that the \nimitation of goodness can mitigate the crapsack world of the \nChristless future, but it's just not the same and the best you can \nhope for is someone to become a vessel for real goodness to influence \ndivine judgement." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1566683228.117228916@webmail.mtecom.net>", "from": { "name": "incanto at mtecom.net", "address": "incanto at mtecom.net" }, "date": "2019-08-24T21:47:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's concessions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ". . . and would the claw carry what the one ring in Tolkien carried: irresistibility?" } ] } ] }