Subject: (urth) Typhon's concessions

From: incanto at mtecom.net <incanto at mtecom.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 01:27:40 +0000

Readers,
 
When Typhon takes Severian to the head of his mountain, he demands that Severain must swear utter submission to him on the claw. I have two questions about this. First, why must Typhon require Severian to hand over the claw at first, then accede to his reluctance and allow him to simply display it in his own hand, rather than just taking it from him? Second, Typhon cajoles S by saying, "It is no more than a form we must follow." Why must Typhon follow any form at all? Does Typhon indirectly acknowledge a power greater than his own to which obeisance is owed? If he were a tyrant like those in our own culture, he may very well do lip service to religious dictates; but here, it seems that for him there is necessity. Any ideas?
 
Fred Weiner 
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 04:24:36 +0000

Well, this scene is so allegorical that it seems to be highly predicated
upon the thematic implications of the temptation of Christ in the
wilderness. Much like the adversary in Job, who abides by an agreement with
God, the Satan in the wilderness is concerned with subverting the will of
his prey rather than in purely destroying him by force. For the plot itself
this has little relevance, but the theme relies upon an examination of
choice even in the face of unbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires
of the flesh and maintain control. So ... Typhon is not merely Typhon here,
but an echo of that particular theological moment, even down to offering
the same exact things to Severian. Allegory is occasionally not a great fit
for realistic novels - Typhon has no reason to acknowledge a greater power
save that Satan knows the only way he can truly defeat a greater power is
by proving that the authority vested in the man he tempts is ill-placed.

On Monday, September 3, 2018, <incanto at mtecom.net> wrote:

> Readers,
>
>
>
> When Typhon takes Severian to the head of his mountain, he demands that
> Severain must swear utter submission to him on the claw. I have two
> questions about this. First, why must Typhon require Severian to hand over
> the claw at first, then accede to his reluctance and allow him to simply
> display it in his own hand, rather than just taking it from him? Second,
> Typhon cajoles S by saying, "It is no more than a form we must follow." Why
> must Typhon follow any form at all? Does Typhon indirectly acknowledge a
> power greater than his own to which obeisance is owed? If he were a tyrant
> like those in our own culture, he may very well do lip service to religious
> dictates; but here, it seems that for him there is necessity. Any ideas?
>
>
>
> Fred Weiner
>
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 04:28:02 +0000

Also, I find wolfe’s setup of the problem of evil and death to be
overwhelmingly orthodox in its theodicy, but readers raised on Naturalism
rather than Augustine tend, for whatever reason, to see overt manipulation
in all things rather than freedom in the face of extreme duress.

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From: incanto at mtecom.net <incanto at mtecom.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 23:18:14 +0000

the theme relies upon an examination of choice even in the face of unbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires of the flesh and maintain control
 
Was Christ trying to maintain control? Or was he so firmly resident in the Divine Presence that personal advantage had no traction? And if that is so, is that also Severian's status? It hardly makes your allegorical interpretation less germain. Everyone accepts that Wolfe has written Christ saturated novels.
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 23:36:50 +0000

Well, as “fully human” I think it implies that Christ is also capable of
making human mistakes - Adam had, at least according to the most orthodox
position, everything he needed to stand firm with his prelapsarian gifts
but fell regardless. One of the biggest themes of Urth of the New Sun as
far as I can tell is that evil will ultimately serve a purpose (Severian
passes the trial because his enemies fight for him - he treated them
justly.) the fall of man, too, allows greater glory in the standing firm of
Christ against temptation and in salvation. I don’t know how much we want
to insist that this scene has the same theological implications as Christ’s
human triumph over temptation but it certainly suggests that severian faces
a similar obstacle in denying the needs of the flesh and personal
aggrandizement - Typhon and the adversary both, in the long term, still
serve th greater good in traditional theodicy.

On Tuesday, September 4, 2018, <incanto at mtecom.net> wrote:

> *the theme relies upon an examination of choice even in the face of
> unbearable thirst and need, to deny the desires of the flesh and maintain
> control*
>
>
>
> Was Christ trying to maintain control? Or was he so firmly resident in the
> Divine Presence that personal advantage had no traction? And if that is so,
> is that also Severian's status? It hardly makes your allegorical
> interpretation less germain. Everyone accepts that Wolfe has written Christ
> saturated novels.
>
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From: incanto at mtecom.net <incanto at mtecom.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 05:56:38 +0000

I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same theological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation
 
Agree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the Solar Cycle universe a "quarter turn" (who knows the exact geometry?) further and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 14:21:03 +0000

Actually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the Universe.
This explains the "archaeological" approch in the BotNS afterwords, and I
believe that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_ ours, no Fall would
take place because Jesus.

This also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley didn't
premember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe cycal.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

When faced with two alternatives, I always like to choose the fourth.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:14 PM <incanto at mtecom.net> wrote:

> *I don’t know how much we want to insist that this scene has the same
> theological implications as Christ’s human triumph over temptation*
>
>
>
> Agree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the Solar
> Cycle universe a "quarter turn" (who knows the exact geometry?) further and
> into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 15:36:43 +0000

I have several textual reasons to really not like part of the interview
with Jordan where Wolfe  goes all in on this previous cycle explanation.
One is the universe has Lewis Carroll (direct quotes!), Theseus, the
monitor and the Virginia, rudyard kipling, Marcus Aurelius, Christian
missionaries, a Catholic Church with Christ voided syncretized with
paganism, and most of all the key statement by isangoma that Agia and
Severian are the results of the choices we make now, the ghosts of the
future in a free universe. Also, in eschatology and genesis nod is told
when he looks for the children of Adam and Eve that he is 50,000 years or
so too late. Textually the emphasis on New Sun as our future is very
present in Shadow and I feel that it is Just as present in Long and Short
Sun with the statements about Allah and the unrecognizable figure of the
goddess of purity on green (Mary, for those Catholics out there).

Against that ... well, a flood. Time travel backwards exists in this world.
If the cycles are this similar why have more than one? I really don’t think
Jesus is absent at all in the solar cycle.

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
wrote:

> This also explains things like Baldanders/Frankenstein: Mary Shelley
> didn't premember Baldanders, it was a haunting from the previous Universe
> cycal.
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
>> Agree. I think GW used his Catholicism as a template but created the
>> Solar Cycle universe a "quarter turn" (who knows the exact geometry?)
>> further and into a fresh creation. Thanks for this dialog.
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 16:09:52 +0000

...except, again, that we have auctorial statement that Jesus *is* absent
from the Solar universe.

That doesn't actually bother me a great deal, as I am inclined to "the text
is the text and the author has no privileged position in its
interpretation." But only inclined...

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:36 AM Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> Against that ... well, a flood. Time travel backwards exists in this
> world. If the cycles are this similar why have more than one? I really
> don’t think Jesus is absent at all in the solar cycle.
>
>> Actually I think of the Solar Cycle as a *previous* cycle of the
>> Universe. This explains the "archaeological" approch in the BotNS
>> afterwords, and I believe that Wolfe would say that in a Universe _after_
>> ours, no Fall would take place because Jesus.
>>
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 16:20:00 +0000

Whereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the terrible
lies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!

wrote:

> That doesn't actually bother me a great deal, as I am inclined to "the
> text is the text and the author has no privileged position in its
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 16:21:29 +0000

Who is that criminal on the scaffold in Silk’s enlightenment? Besus, the
Sumerian protochrist? (Gilgamesh joke, sorry)

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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 16:28:02 +0000

My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe almost
does - but not to me. I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take out the most
important person in history and have it change nothing in that history. We
still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic Church and drinking matte in
South America and pope’s translation of the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any
impact on history if the solar cycle doesn’t have him.

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:36:10 +0000

The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus. Who
says enlightenment only works backwards?

I suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There are
little contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having
perfect memory *and* truthfulness.

As for all the things "just like" our world; I don't know. That's not easy
to explain.

H'mmm. What justification do you have for Araminian Exceptionalism (i.e.,
he won't "almost lie" to you)?

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

>> Whereas I believe in the absolute authority of the author and the
>> terrible lies and misdirections of his interview habits. What a dilemma!
>>
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:39:31 +0000

My good looks and penetrating intellect, of course. The aura of Aramini. I
call it Marcissism.

wrote:

>> My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe
>> almost does - but not to me. I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take out the
>> most important person in history and have it change nothing in that
>> history. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic Church and
>> drinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of the odyssey.
>> Jesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar cycle doesn’t have him.
>>
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:41:30 +0000

With a few notable exceptions he ignores my questions on his work,
honestly. But he won’t misdirect me as I feel some interview questions
really border on.

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

>> The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously Jesus.
>> Who says enlightenment only works backwards?
>>
>> As for all the things "just like" our world; I don't know. That's not
>> easy to explain.
>>
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From: Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <jwilson at clueland.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 15:21:45 +0000

On 05-Sep-18 12:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
> I suspect that Severian _does_ lie, or at least makes mistakes. There 
> are little contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him having 

  On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com
> <mailto:marcaramini at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     almost does - but not to me. 

The narrative has Sev flat out lying to Vodalus, despite having taken 
his coin and sworn allegiance, and to his brothers in the Guild.

Why not to us?

>     I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take
>     out the most important person in history and have it change nothing
>     in that history. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic
>     Church and drinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of
>     the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar
>     cycle doesn’t have him.

Ordinarily I would agree with that hypothesis but it's based on a 
materialistic, objectively causal theory of history. After the first 
Edenic manvantara where everything goes right and mankind begets the 
Hierodules before becoming the sublime Hieros and vanishing, the 
Hierodules are left behind but use their access to Briah to try to make 
history conform to the first go-round so they can follow.

So if there is no Jesus, they can supply one. If there is no Gospel, 
they can supply a set. But if there is no LOGOS in them, or him, that's 
up to the Increate. I think Wolfe's notion is that the imitation of 
goodness can mitigate the crapsack world of the Christless future, but 
it's just not the same and the best you can hope for is someone to 
become a vessel for real goodness to influence divine judgement.

-- 
Jeffery Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >
RIP - A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab
< http://clueland.com/demo/interact/ >

---

From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 15:39:43 +0000

I don’t think the solar cycle is really worse than our reality in nature at
all, merely a progression of human freedoms. There are news stories every
day that make the events of the commonwealth, except for the catastrophic
flood, seem quite close to our world.

Regarding lies-  Because time turns our lies into truth - I really  the
lies or misdirections in Wolfe become twisted to reflect a deeper reality.
Almost all of my analysis of Wolfe is based on taking everything super
literally, or taking some things that seem to be mere dressing as
allegorical. A dream in WK says “I” knew my baby would die and could not
breathe. Able’s story is a projection by Michael into his mother’s dreams -
the dreams are real but the “whole story” is a dream. Now at the end of my
project I really cant help but see how Wolfe keeps turning badness into
good and things that seem to be impossible or inexplicable become logical
when taken literally.

There are Christian missionaries in the solar cycle. Well then, despite all
the over rationalization and hints at a cyclic reality, quite simply, there
is Christ in the solar cycle. About sixteen years ago everyone kept pulling
out Occam’s razor on me when I talked about Short Sun. I don’t think
fiction has to conform to that, but in my mind having no Christ in New Sun
serves little to no thematic purpose if it is at all involved in
interrogating human agency and fate versus free will. Even in my reading of
WK developing embryo Able has a choice, and the absence of Christ in
Mythgarthr save for that sole cross which comes to resonate with eterne and
actual birth at least makes a tragic sense.

On Friday, September 7, 2018, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <
jwilson at clueland.com> wrote:

> The narrative has Sev flat out lying to Vodalus, despite having taken his
> coin and sworn allegiance, and to his brothers in the Guild.
>
> Why not to us?
>
>
> materialistic, objectively causal theory of history. After the first Edenic
> manvantara where everything goes right and mankind begets the Hierodules
> before becoming the sublime Hieros and vanishing, the Hierodules are left
> behind but use their access to Briah to try to make history conform to the
> first go-round so they can follow.
>
> So if there is no Jesus, they can supply one. If there is no Gospel, they
> can supply a set. But if there is no LOGOS in them, or him, that's up to
> the Increate. I think Wolfe's notion is that the imitation of goodness can
> mitigate the crapsack world of the Christless future, but it's just not the
> same and the best you can hope for is someone to become a vessel for real
> goodness to influence divine judgement.
>
> --
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 15:49:32 +0000

“Really think” - might have some other missing words in that sorry

On Friday, September 7, 2018, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> allegorical.
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:55:16 +0000

Well put. I was thinking along the same lines as far as materialistic 
assumptions about history, but was unable to develop the idea further.

On 9/7/2018 11:21 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com wrote:
>> The criminal on the scaffold in Silk's enlightenment? Obviously 
>> Jesus. Who says enlightenment only works backwards?
>>
>> are little contradictions in his account that don't jibe with him 
>> having perfect memory *and* truthfulness.
>
> “On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com
>> ?”? My nuclear hot take on the solar cycle: Severian doesn’t lie; Wolfe
>> ??? almost does - but not to me. 
>
>> ??? I just can’t imagine Wolfe would take
>> ??? out the most important person in history and have it change nothing
>> ??? in that history. We still get Alice in wonderland and a Catholic
>> ??? Church and drinking matte in South America and pope’s translation of
>> ??? the odyssey. Jesus didn’t have any impact on history if the solar
>> ??? cycle doesn’t have him.
>
> Hierodules are left behind but use their access to Briah to try to 
> make history conform to the first go-round so they can follow.
>
> they can supply a set. But if there is no LOGOS in them, or him, 
> that's up to the Increate. I think Wolfe's notion is that the 
> imitation of goodness can mitigate the crapsack world of the 
> Christless future, but it's just not the same and the best you can 
> hope for is someone to become a vessel for real goodness to influence 
> divine judgement.
>

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From: incanto at mtecom.net <incanto at mtecom.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 21:47:08 +0000

. . . and would the claw carry what the one ring in Tolkien carried: irresistibility?
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