{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6804", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6804, "subject": "Borrowed Man writeup", "messages": 27, "voices": 3, "first": "2018-09-29T19:27:17+00:00", "last": "2018-10-03T15:37:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-29T19:27:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is my writeup on A borrowed man - two to go (land across, evil guest).\n\nhttps://pastebin.com/3Ph363VX" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T03:37:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, gonna have to add this realization in there somewhere. Sometimes when\nI glance through these things afterwards a particular image clicks into\nplace. When ern first sees Arabella at the owenbright library, she\ncomplains that he brought her chocolates that “greased the skid to Hell”.\nChick Bantz, the androgynous thug in blue, then comes and offers ern three\nhundred creds, hot chocolate, and three sandwiches, trying to get him to\nleave with him. When ern gives the third sandwich away, he sees Arabella\nstaring into space and unconsciously grasping a pencil. Ern told chick he\nhad a card for a different library that would not unlock the owenbright\ndoors, though they would let him out of Spice Grove. Ern will meet three\nArabellas and will just leave one with Colette, whom he finds staring off\ninto space just as Arabella was in this scene. I don’t know why sandwiches\nshould serve as symbolic stand in for the Arabellas but they seem to. The\nlibrary card he mentions as a means of egress, but not for every door,\nmight also be related to the method he leaves the jungle planet door the\nfirst time: a key he already has which only works to exit the right side of\nthe door. Chick’s short stature and blue clothes might link him to the\ndeceased mother, but perhaps this set piece actually metonymically\nillustrates who was responsible for buying the Arabella “sandwiches.” We\nshould remember cob (a swan - chick offers ern a swig of swan-n-sweetheart\nhere) is a bird as his car Canary - chick, too might be in line with this.\nThe Arabella clones may have been financed by Cob, with his murder on mars\n(mom) forgery. Whether chick IS a form of the mom or of Cob, this scene\nillustrates who put things in motion through the connection of bird (and\nfood) imagery - cob-swan-canary-chick.\n\nThat's a key scene because it is also where Ern makes his Chatterton\nmistake, the young forger who poisoned himself, thinking that instead the\nboy choked on a biscuit. Tied to the presence of Chick ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 12:27 PM Marc Aramini wrote:\nHere is my writeup on A borrowed man - two to go (land across, evil\nguest).\n\nhttps://pastebin.com/3Ph363VX\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93a62c44-1662-b553-e8c0-b5250c9e2c34@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-09-30T11:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great work Marc.\n\nCould it be relevant that time is not mentioned at all by Roglich, \ninstead temperature differentials are introduced when space is \ndisplaced. Very weird. There must be some connection between Roglichs \ndigression about space, the cold and hot polarity throughout the book \nand the plot. An indication that time is involved is maybe that the \ndates don't fit.\n\nThe jungle world I found very inhospitable and constricted and not a \nplace to spend time. Could it not be a place like Father Inure's garden? \nWhen people are going in and out of the jungle-room temporal changes may \nbe involved like coming back before you entered. Then there is the river \n- or brook? - of time in Urth of the New Sun.\n\nI believe you also mentioned an interpretation like the one of /Point \nBlank/ (neo noir 1967) interpretation. Some critics said the whole movie \nwas a revenge fantasy of the dying man (Lee Marvin) shot at the \nbeginning. According to Wiki: \"Some critics consider /Point Blank/, \"a \nhaunted, dream-like film that draws upon the spatial and temporal \nexperiments of modernist European art cinema\",^[16] \n \nespecially the \"time-fractured\" films of French director Alain Resnais \n.^[17]\" \n\n\nThe names bother me as well: all those Co..'s and the fact that Payne \nand Fish are not mentioned in the list. Why not? Are they two known \ncharacters in disguise?\n\nI found Camestros Felapton's remarks interesting as a partial list of \nWolfean tropes stretching back to Cerberus and not only characterizing \nhis later work.\n\n\nOp 29-9-2018 om 21:27 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here is my writeup on A borrowed man - two to go (land across, evil \nguest).\n\nhttps://pastebin.com/3Ph363VX\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T11:40:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "<93a62c44-1662-b553-e8c0-b5250c9e2c34@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. I really think the temp is about the subconscious fragment inside\nErn: heat makes invisible writing in the book show up and when it cools\ndown it disappears ... displaced space makes it cold ... coldbrook. So many\npossibilities but the chick scene with him pouring swan and sweetheart in\nthe chocolate (chocolate greased the skid to hell) is I think at least one\nother possible reason things have gone wrong - cob and his girl in the mix.\nLate Wolfe is hardest Wolfe. So tricky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:\nGreat work Marc.\n\nCould it be relevant that time is not mentioned at all by Roglich, instead\ntemperature differentials are introduced when space is displaced. Very\nweird. There must be some connection between Roglichs digression about\nspace, the cold and hot polarity throughout the book and the plot. An\nindication that time is involved is maybe that the dates don't fit.\n\nThe jungle world I found very inhospitable and constricted and not a place\nto spend time. Could it not be a place like Father Inure's garden? When\npeople are going in and out of the jungle-room temporal changes may be\ninvolved like coming back before you entered. Then there is the river - or\nbrook? - of time in Urth of the New Sun.\n\nI believe you also mentioned an interpretation like the one of * Point\nBlank* (neo noir 1967) interpretation. Some critics said the whole movie\nwas a revenge fantasy of the dying man (Lee Marvin) shot at the beginning.\nAccording to Wiki: \"Some critics consider *Point Blank*, \"a haunted,\ndream-like film that draws upon the spatial and temporal experiments of\nmodernist European art cinema\",[16]\n\nespecially the \"time-fractured\" films of French director Alain Resnais\n.[17]\"\n\n\nThe names bother me as well: all those Co..'s and the fact that Payne and\nFish are not mentioned in the list. Why not? Are they two known characters\nin disguise?\n\nI found Camestros Felapton's remarks interesting as a partial list of\nWolfean tropes stretching back to Cerberus and not only characterizing his\nlater work.\n\nOp 29-9-2018 om 21:27 schreef Marc Aramini:\n\nHere is my writeup on A borrowed man - two to go (land across, evil\nguest).\n\nhttps://pastebin.com/3Ph363VX\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T11:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "<93a62c44-1662-b553-e8c0-b5250c9e2c34@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has equations.\nEquations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret, where the\nburning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that book of\nequations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with Arabella... but\nwhy equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich speaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of John\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are way harder to pin down.\nI’m certain Grafton is represented by a pencil (graphite) in land across.\nWhat the heck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:\nGreat work Marc.\n\nCould it be relevant that time is not mentioned at all by Roglich, instead\ntemperature differentials are introduced when space is displaced. Very\nweird. There must be some connection between Roglichs digression about\nspace, the cold and hot polarity throughout the book and the plot. An\nindication that time is involved is maybe that the dates don't fit.\n\nThe jungle world I found very inhospitable and constricted and not a place\nto spend time. Could it not be a place like Father Inure's garden? When\npeople are going in and out of the jungle-room temporal changes may be\ninvolved like coming back before you entered. Then there is the river - or\nbrook? - of time in Urth of the New Sun.\n\nI believe you also mentioned an interpretation like the one of * Point\nBlank* (neo noir 1967) interpretation. Some critics said the whole movie\nwas a revenge fantasy of the dying man (Lee Marvin) shot at the beginning.\nAccording to Wiki: \"Some critics consider *Point Blank*, \"a haunted,\ndream-like film that draws upon the spatial and temporal experiments of\nmodernist European art cinema\",[16]\n\nespecially the \"time-fractured\" films of French director Alain Resnais\n.[17]\"\n\n\nThe names bother me as well: all those Co..'s and the fact that Payne and\nFish are not mentioned in the list. Why not? Are they two known characters\nin disguise?\n\nI found Camestros Felapton's remarks interesting as a partial list of\nWolfean tropes stretching back to Cerberus and not only characterizing his\nlater work.\n\nOp 29-9-2018 om 21:27 schreef Marc Aramini:\n\nHere is my writeup on A borrowed man - two to go (land across, evil\nguest).\n\nhttps://pastebin.com/3Ph363VX\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T11:49:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Auto correct strikes: were is weer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAlso, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\nequations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret,\nwhere the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that\nbook of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\nArabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich\nspeaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of John\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T12:51:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of all the Co- names, when roglich points to the book he starts\nstuttering: I-I ... c-could you bring me a copy of my book ... a th-thin\nbook in a b-b-blue binding. (82-3) I really think there is a relationship\nthere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAuto correct strikes: were is weer.\n\nOn Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\nequations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret,\nwhere the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that\nbook of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\nArabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich\nspeaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of John\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T17:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc:\nI am reading through the write-up. You pointed out that you felt after writing it that there is some connection between Arabella and sandwiches. With that in mind, this stuck out to me from your writing: \"[C]ould it be that Ern actually represents one which fits one side of the door but not the other? Would Arabella constitute the other side, assuming that her proliferation is slightly unnatural?\" Ern on one side of the door, Arabella on the other -- a sandwich." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-09-30T18:09:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes I really think this is the case.\nI am going to revise the ending a bit with these thoughts in mind but not\ntoo much - still going to leave that “open” conclusion. Hope you don’t mind\nthe quotes in there I used the list heavily in this one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:\nMarc:\nI am reading through the write-up. You pointed out that you felt after\nwriting it that there is some connection between Arabella and sandwiches.\nWith that in mind, this stuck out to me from your writing: \"[C]ould it be\nthat Ern actually represents one which fits one side of the door but not\nthe other? Would Arabella constitute the other side, assuming that her\nproliferation is slightly unnatural?\" Ern on one side of the door,\nArabella on the other -- a sandwich." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T12:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, there is a scene in which ern claims that water vapor makes the sky\non the other planet so blue. Normally this would be just a little\ninaccuracy, but given the name of the Coldbrooks and the prominence of the\ncolor blue (from the blue and white clothes of the mother to the blue and\nwhite planet pictured next to the red planet choked by a snake on Murder on\nMars to the man in blue looking for him to the blue smock of Chick to the\nblue trimmed shirt he pulls on from Cob’s room to .... the violet instead\nof blue eyes of Colette?!!!!!!! How does that interrogation go with Payne\nand fish - it dwells on the color of her eyes So ... blue indicative of a\nColdbrook or a fragment of a coldbrook - an error which tells a symbolic\ntruth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T13:05:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\ninvolved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\ncomedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAlso, there is a scene in which ern claims that water vapor makes the sky\non the other planet so blue. Normally this would be just a little\ninaccuracy, but given the name of the Coldbrooks and the prominence of the\ncolor blue (from the blue and white clothes of the mother to the blue and\nwhite planet pictured next to the red planet choked by a snake on Murder on\nMars to the man in blue looking for him to the blue smock of Chick to the\nblue trimmed shirt he pulls on from Cob’s room to .... the violet instead\nof blue eyes of Colette?!!!!!!! How does that interrogation go with Payne\nand fish - it dwells on the color of her eyes So ... blue indicative of a\nColdbrook or a fragment of a coldbrook - an error which tells a symbolic\ntruth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T13:08:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fire and water, yes ... but that still doesn’t give me what I need here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\ninvolved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\ncomedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, there is a scene in which ern claims that water vapor makes the sky\non the other planet so blue. Normally this would be just a little\ninaccuracy, but given the name of the Coldbrooks and the prominence of the\ncolor blue (from the blue and white clothes of the mother to the blue and\nwhite planet pictured next to the red planet choked by a snake on Murder on\nMars to the man in blue looking for him to the blue smock of Chick to the\nblue trimmed shirt he pulls on from Cob’s room to .... the violet instead\nof blue eyes of Colette?!!!!!!! How does that interrogation go with Payne\nand fish - it dwells on the color of her eyes So ... blue indicative of a\nColdbrook or a fragment of a coldbrook - an error which tells a symbolic\ntruth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5be58a9f-ae9b-1d74-4617-2a4a0e0e1926@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-10-01T14:46:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is also one in which he looks at the moon of the jungle planet \nwhich is covered in ice. That too is because of the water. There would \nnot be an ice and fire mythology - nazi's were fond of that one (/Arktos \nthe polar myth/? by Joscelyn Godwin)- here, would it? Or something pre \nSocratic like water and fire or love and hate battling.\n\n\nOp 1-10-2018 om 14:46 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, there is a scene in which ern claims that water vapor makes the \nsky on the other planet so blue. Normally this would be just a little \ninaccuracy, but given the name of the Coldbrooks and the prominence of \nthe color blue (from the blue and white clothes of the mother to the \nblue and white planet pictured next to the red planet choked by a \nsnake on Murder on Mars to the man in blue looking for him to the blue \nsmock of Chick to the blue trimmed shirt he pulls on from Cob’s room \nto .... the violet instead of blue eyes of Colette?!!!!!!! How does \nthat interrogation go with Payne and fish - it dwells on the color of \nher eyes So ... blue indicative of a Coldbrook or a fragment of a \ncoldbrook - an error which tells a symbolic truth.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T16:18:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "<5be58a9f-ae9b-1d74-4617-2a4a0e0e1926@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On October 1, 2018 Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\ninvolved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\ncomedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a couple of other references to red in the book. Ern says that he wrote a series involving a character called The Red Searcher (pg. 112). There are red leather bar stools at Coldbrook manor (pg. 197). Payne uses the term \"macro-red\" in some inscrutably slangy way: Ern: \"You must find it unpleasant, I'm sure.\" Payne: \"You bet we do. It's macro-red. If you can tell me anything that might help, I'll be your friend for life, and that's no chad, see?\" (pg. 132). Arabella remembers saltwater taffy that came in a box decorated with a seascape. The taffies themselves were in \"red, blue, and green wrappers\". (pg. 91). RBG in Wolfe-land does not make me think of a Supreme Court Justice." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T16:23:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That damn taffy ... Arabella and food. Saltwater, seascape - cold brook.\nFor real though, how is anybody supposed to figure out which of the\nsearchers is most associated with red? And the green ... I think Wolfe\nmapped these colors allegorically onto one particular thing in each case\nbut how we can untangle that is still ... nebulous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:\nOn October 1, 2018 Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\ninvolved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\ncomedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a couple of other references to red in the book. Ern says that\nhe wrote a series involving a character called The Red Searcher (pg. 112).\nThere are red leather bar stools at Coldbrook manor (pg. 197). Payne uses\nthe term \"macro-red\" in some inscrutably slangy way: Ern: \"You must find it\nunpleasant, I'm sure.\" Payne: \"You bet we do. It's macro-red. If you can\ntell me anything that might help, I'll be your friend for life, and that's\nno chad, see?\" (pg. 132). Arabella remembers saltwater taffy that came in\na box decorated with a seascape. The taffies themselves were in \"red,\nblue, and green wrappers\". (pg. 91). RBG in Wolfe-land does not make me\nthink of a Supreme Court Justice.\n\n------------------------------\n*From:* Urth on behalf of\nurth-request at lists.urth.net \n*Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:35 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* Urth Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8\n\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n 2. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n 3. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Robert Pirkola)\n 4. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 04:49:18 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\nAuto correct strikes: were is weer.\n\nOn Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\nequations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret,\nwhere the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that\nbook of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\nArabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich\nspeaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of John\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "URL: \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 05:51:13 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\nSpeaking of all the Co- names, when roglich points to the book he starts\nstuttering: I-I ... c-could you bring me a copy of my book ... a th-thin\nbook in a b-b-blue binding. (82-3) I really think there is a relationship\nthere.\n\nOn Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Auto correct strikes: were is weer.\n\nOn Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\nequations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret,\nwhere the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that\nbook of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\nArabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich\nspeaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of John\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 17:28:21 +0000\nFrom: Robert Pirkola \nTo: \"urth at lists.urth.net\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\nMessage-ID:\n \n\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nMarc:\nI am reading through the write-up. You pointed out that you felt after\nwriting it that there is some connection between Arabella and sandwiches.\nWith that in mind, this stuck out to me from your writing: \"[C]ould it be\nthat Ern actually represents one which fits one side of the door but not\nthe other? Would Arabella constitute the other side, assuming that her\nproliferation is slightly unnatural?\" Ern on one side of the door,\nArabella on the other -- a sandwich.\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 11:09:16 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T20:25:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This hot/cold thing is pretty interesting when you get into it. I just noticed two things that I thought were worth reporting.\nFirst, Arabella is described as \"very, very hot\" (pg. 265). Then you have Summer and Spring Peters. Summer lives in Kokolik City (pg. 228).\nPresumably this refers to futuristic city on the Kokolik River in Alaska. It is about as far north as land goes on the globe.\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokolik_River. Spring lives \"down\" in \"Nuevo Dinero\" (pg. 228). This sounds like Mexico at least but\nmight be anywhere in the Spanish speaking parts of North and South America. It is south of New Delphi. Clearly they are being separated\ninto hot and cold camps. You say that in *Short Sun* Spring Wind is associated with Mars. If so, then Spring here would put Mars in the \"hot\"\ncamp. Summer would be in the \"cold\" camp. (Of course, it occurs to me that if there is a thriving city up in the extreme north of Alaska, something drastic has changed with Earth's climate, so does this really put Summer in the \"cold\" camp?) Marc asks this about Summer (a heart surgeon) in his write-up: \"Would a heart surgeon be privy to undetectable drugs which might mimic cardiac arrest or be useful in obtaining them?\" If heat is associated with death, then Summer living in Kokolik City would seem to answer this question in the negative. If cold is associated with death, then the opposite. How do you see hot/cold? Certaintly Ern associates heat with his ultimate demise, but at the same time heat is necessarily about change and life is nothing if not change. I generally associate cold with lack of change/death. This is odd for Ern because he associates heat with death but maybe it is a necessary heat and death is necessary for life. Earth is blue/cold/death because humanity has retired. Is this what you are going for Marc? Marc's write-up says: \"I think the burning man is a metaphor for humanity, complacent in its damnation, rather than a literal statement about Ern as an individual.\" But if humanity is complacent and retired and cold and blue and dead isn't the burning man a metaphor for the irrational fear the dead have of life? Ern isn't scared of being incinerated because he is scared of dying, it's because he's scared of living.\n[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/USA_Alaska_location_map.svg/1200px-USA_Alaska_location_map.svg.png]\n\nKokolik River - Wikipedia\nThe Kokolik River is a stream, 200 miles (320 km) long, in the western North Slope of the U.S. state of Alaska. It rises in the De Long Mountains of the western Brooks Range and flows generally north and northwest into the Kasegaluk Lagoon. The river mouth is 1 mile (1.6 km) east of Point Lay, on the Chukchi Sea of the Arctic Ocean.. Its Inuit name, Kokolik, refers to the alpine bistort, an ...\nen.wikipedia.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-10-01T21:56:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The names Arabella and Colette refer both via via vaguely to male \ncatholic saints: Gregory the Great and Nicolas. Relevant?\n\nRed and Blue are primary colors: yellow is missing. Is A Borrowed Man's \nworld a world without a sun? I found a few references to night time but \nnot to day time. Is it a world without a salvation, a sort of hell? How \nwould time be measured?\n\nThere is also systematic discrimination of reclones which even sounds a \nbit like negroes.\n\n\nOp 1-10-2018 om 18:23 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That damn taffy ... Arabella and food. Saltwater, seascape - cold \nbrook. For real though, how is anybody supposed to figure out which of \nthe searchers is most associated with red? And the green ... I think \nWolfe mapped these colors allegorically onto one particular thing in \neach case but how we can untangle that is still ... nebulous.\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola > wrote:\n\n On October 1, 2018 Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n >And violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\n >involved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\n >comedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?\n\n There are a couple of other references to red in the book. Ern\n says that he wrote a series involving a character called The Red\n Searcher (pg. 112). There are red leather bar stools at Coldbrook\n manor (pg. 197). Payne uses the term \"macro-red\" in some\n inscrutably slangy way: Ern: \"You must find it unpleasant, I'm\n sure.\"? Payne: \"You bet we do. It's macro-red. If you can tell\n me anything that might help, I'll be your friend for life, and\n that's no chad, see?\" (pg. 132). Arabella remembers saltwater\n taffy that came in a box decorated with a seascape. The taffies\n themselves were in \"red, blue, and green wrappers\". (pg. 91).\n RBG in Wolfe-land does not make me think of a Supreme Court Justice.\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n *From:* Urth > on behalf of\n urth-request at lists.urth.net \n >\n *Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:35 PM\n *To:* urth at lists.urth.net \n *Subject:* Urth Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8\n Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net \n\n To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\n \n or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net \n\n You can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net \n\n When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\n than \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\n Today's Topics:\n\n ? 1. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n ? 2. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n ? 3. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Robert Pirkola)\n ? 4. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n\n\n ----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n Message: 1\n Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 04:49:18 -0700\n From: Marc Aramini >\n To: The Urth Mailing List >\n Subject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\n Message-ID:\n ???????\n >\n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\n Auto correct strikes: were is weer.\n\n On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n > Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\n > equations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a\n secret,\n > where the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies\n of that\n > book of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\n > Arabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that\n Roglich\n > speaks.\n > I think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the\n embedded\n > symbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son\n of John\n > (were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are\n -------------- next part --------------\n An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\n URL:\n >\n\n ------------------------------\n\n Message: 2\n Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 05:51:13 -0700\n From: Marc Aramini >\n To: The Urth Mailing List >\n Subject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\n Message-ID:\n ???????\n >\n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\n Speaking of all the Co- names, when roglich points to the book he\n starts\n stuttering: I-I ... c-could you bring me a copy of my book ... a\n th-thin\n book in a b-b-blue binding. (82-3) I really think there is a\n relationship\n there.\n\n On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n > Auto correct strikes: were is weer.\n >\n > On Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini\n > wrote:\n >\n >> Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\n >> equations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a\n secret,\n >> where the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies\n of that\n >> book of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\n >> Arabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that\n Roglich\n >> speaks.\n >> I think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the\n embedded\n >> symbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya-\n son of John\n >> (were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are\n >\n >\n -------------- next part --------------\n An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\n URL:\n >\n\n ------------------------------\n\n Message: 3\n Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 17:28:21 +0000\n From: Robert Pirkola >\n To: \"urth at lists.urth.net \"\n >\n Subject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\n Message-ID:\n ???????\n >\n\n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n Marc:\n I am reading through the write-up. You pointed out that you felt\n after writing it that there is some connection between Arabella\n and sandwiches. With that in mind, this stuck out to me from your\n writing: \"[C]ould it be that Ern actually represents one which\n fits one side of the door but not the other? Would Arabella\n constitute the other side, assuming that her proliferation is\n slightly unnatural?\"? Ern on one side of the door, Arabella on the\n other -- a sandwich.\n -------------- next part --------------\n An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\n URL:\n >\n\n ------------------------------\n\n Message: 4\n Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 11:09:16 -0700\n From: Marc Aramini >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T22:03:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Robert. Yes I noticed the association of Arabella with heat and I had a\nnote about kokolik I never put in the writeup ... we are going some\ninteresting places here. While I would love a link to mars, given the\nplanet choked by a snake (a woman’s a snake and a snare, I hear), let’s\nhone in on the nature of the spring wind - early summer (June/Juno)\nreference. Spring wind is mars because of the story of Juno impregnated by\na tree in Ovid, the birth of Mars. That may or may not be applicable here.\nSummer is a hot month. But she is in a cold place. The man in woman woman\nin man Shakespearean stuff ... is spring a warm month? Are summer and\nspring the hot to the coldbrook?s cold? There’s a precision here that is\ncomplicated by Arabella and heat ... but she seems to be related to the\nmachinations of chick/cob if there is any validity to the sandwhich. Is\nColette Colette or is she a “hot” imitation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:\nThis hot/cold thing is pretty interesting when you get into it. I just\nnoticed two things that I thought were worth reporting.\nFirst, Arabella is described as \"very, very hot\" (pg. 265). Then you have\nSummer and Spring Peters. Summer lives in Kokolik City (pg. 228).\nPresumably this refers to futuristic city on the Kokolik River in Alaska.\nIt is about as far north as land goes on the globe.\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokolik_River. Spring lives \"down\" in\n\"Nuevo Dinero\" (pg. 228). This sounds like Mexico at least but\nmight be anywhere in the Spanish speaking parts of North and South\nAmerica. It is south of New Delphi. Clearly they are being separated\ninto hot and cold camps. You say that in *Short Sun* Spring Wind is\nassociated with Mars. If so, then Spring here would put Mars in the \"hot\"\ncamp. Summer would be in the \"cold\" camp. (Of course, it occurs to me\nthat if there is a thriving city up in the extreme north of Alaska,\nsomething drastic has changed with Earth's climate, so does this really put\nSummer in the \"cold\" camp?) Marc asks this about Summer (a heart surgeon)\nin his write-up: \"Would a heart surgeon be privy to undetectable drugs\nwhich might mimic cardiac arrest or be useful in obtaining them?\" If heat\nis associated with death, then Summer living in Kokolik City would seem to\nanswer this question in the negative. If cold is associated with death,\nthen the opposite. How do you see hot/cold? Certaintly Ern associates\nheat with his ultimate demise, but at the same time heat is necessarily\nabout change and life is nothing if not change. I generally associate cold\nwith lack of change/death. This is odd for Ern because he associates heat\nwith death but maybe it is a necessary heat and death is necessary for\nlife. Earth is blue/cold/death because humanity has retired. Is this what\nyou are going for Marc? Marc's write-up says: \"I think the burning man is\na metaphor for humanity, complacent in its damnation, rather than a literal\nstatement about Ern as an individual.\" But if humanity is complacent and\nretired and cold and blue and dead isn't the burning man a metaphor for the\nirrational fear the dead have of life? Ern isn't scared of being\nincinerated because he is scared of dying, it's because he's scared of\nliving.\n\nKokolik River - Wikipedia \nThe Kokolik River is a stream, 200 miles (320 km) long, in the western\nNorth Slope of the U.S. state of Alaska. It rises in the De Long Mountains\nof the western Brooks Range and flows generally north and northwest into\nthe Kasegaluk Lagoon. The river mouth is 1 mile (1.6 km) east of Point Lay,\non the Chukchi Sea of the Arctic Ocean.. Its Inuit name, Kokolik, refers to\nthe alpine bistort, an ...\nen.wikipedia.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T22:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And those sandwiches are part of the swan-n-sweetheart spiking of the\nchocolate which may or may not have greased the slippery slope to hell" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHi Robert. Yes I noticed the association of Arabella with heat and I had a\nnote about kokolik I never put in the writeup ... we are going some\ninteresting places here. While I would love a link to mars, given the\nplanet choked by a snake (a woman’s a snake and a snare, I hear), let’s\nhone in on the nature of the spring wind - early summer (June/Juno)\nreference. Spring wind is mars because of the story of Juno impregnated by\na tree in Ovid, the birth of Mars. That may or may not be applicable here.\nSummer is a hot month. But she is in a cold place. The man in woman woman\nin man Shakespearean stuff ... is spring a warm month? Are summer and\nspring the hot to the coldbrook?s cold? There’s a precision here that is\ncomplicated by Arabella and heat ... but she seems to be related to the\nmachinations of chick/cob if there is any validity to the sandwhich. Is\nColette Colette or is she a “hot” imitation?\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This hot/cold thing is pretty interesting when you get into it. I just\nnoticed two things that I thought were worth reporting.\nFirst, Arabella is described as \"very, very hot\" (pg. 265). Then you\nhave Summer and Spring Peters. Summer lives in Kokolik City (pg. 228).\nPresumably this refers to futuristic city on the Kokolik River in\nAlaska. It is about as far north as land goes on the globe.\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokolik_River. Spring lives \"down\" in\n\"Nuevo Dinero\" (pg. 228). This sounds like Mexico at least but\nmight be anywhere in the Spanish speaking parts of North and South\nAmerica. It is south of New Delphi. Clearly they are being separated\ninto hot and cold camps. You say that in *Short Sun* Spring Wind is\nassociated with Mars. If so, then Spring here would put Mars in the \"hot\"\ncamp. Summer would be in the \"cold\" camp. (Of course, it occurs to me\nthat if there is a thriving city up in the extreme north of Alaska,\nsomething drastic has changed with Earth's climate, so does this really put\nSummer in the \"cold\" camp?) Marc asks this about Summer (a heart surgeon)\nin his write-up: \"Would a heart surgeon be privy to undetectable drugs\nwhich might mimic cardiac arrest or be useful in obtaining them?\" If heat\nis associated with death, then Summer living in Kokolik City would seem to\nanswer this question in the negative. If cold is associated with death,\nthen the opposite. How do you see hot/cold? Certaintly Ern associates\nheat with his ultimate demise, but at the same time heat is necessarily\nabout change and life is nothing if not change. I generally associate cold\nwith lack of change/death. This is odd for Ern because he associates heat\nwith death but maybe it is a necessary heat and death is necessary for\nlife. Earth is blue/cold/death because humanity has retired. Is this what\nyou are going for Marc? Marc's write-up says: \"I think the burning man is\na metaphor for humanity, complacent in its damnation, rather than a literal\nstatement about Ern as an individual.\" But if humanity is complacent and\nretired and cold and blue and dead isn't the burning man a metaphor for the\nirrational fear the dead have of life? Ern isn't scared of being\nincinerated because he is scared of dying, it's because he's scared of\nliving.\n\nKokolik River - Wikipedia \nThe Kokolik River is a stream, 200 miles (320 km) long, in the western\nNorth Slope of the U.S. state of Alaska. It rises in the De Long Mountains\nof the western Brooks Range and flows generally north and northwest into\nthe Kasegaluk Lagoon. The river mouth is 1 mile (1.6 km) east of Point Lay,\non the Chukchi Sea of the Arctic Ocean.. Its Inuit name, Kokolik, refers to\nthe alpine bistort, an ...\nen.wikipedia.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-01T23:19:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem of course is that much like “violet” eyes being a mix or blue\nand red I think spring is a mix of hot and cold (?). If she were named\nwinter it would be clear. She’s a teacher in new money. Colette is a\nteacher with money living in Taos Towers- also vaguely Spanish sounding in\nits implications. But there’s no reason not to believe that Mrs Peters has\ntwo children - and I don’t think a surgeon would try to take the identity\nof a school teacher unless the pay off were huge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHi Robert. Yes I noticed the association of Arabella with heat and I had a\nnote about kokolik I never put in the writeup ... we are going some\ninteresting places here. While I would love a link to mars, given the\nplanet choked by a snake (a woman’s a snake and a snare, I hear), let’s\nhone in on the nature of the spring wind - early summer (June/Juno)\nreference. Spring wind is mars because of the story of Juno impregnated by\na tree in Ovid, the birth of Mars. That may or may not be applicable here.\nSummer is a hot month. But she is in a cold place. The man in woman woman\nin man Shakespearean stuff ... is spring a warm month? Are summer and\nspring the hot to the coldbrook?s cold? There’s a precision here that is\ncomplicated by Arabella and heat ... but she seems to be related to the\nmachinations of chick/cob if there is any validity to the sandwhich. Is\nColette Colette or is she a “hot” imitation?\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This hot/cold thing is pretty interesting when you get into it. I just\nnoticed two things that I thought were worth reporting.\nFirst, Arabella is described as \"very, very hot\" (pg. 265). Then you\nhave Summer and Spring Peters. Summer lives in Kokolik City (pg. 228).\nPresumably this refers to futuristic city on the Kokolik River in\nAlaska. It is about as far north as land goes on the globe.\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokolik_River. Spring lives \"down\" in\n\"Nuevo Dinero\" (pg. 228). This sounds like Mexico at least but\nmight be anywhere in the Spanish speaking parts of North and South\nAmerica. It is south of New Delphi. Clearly they are being separated\ninto hot and cold camps. You say that in *Short Sun* Spring Wind is\nassociated with Mars. If so, then Spring here would put Mars in the \"hot\"\ncamp. Summer would be in the \"cold\" camp. (Of course, it occurs to me\nthat if there is a thriving city up in the extreme north of Alaska,\nsomething drastic has changed with Earth's climate, so does this really put\nSummer in the \"cold\" camp?) Marc asks this about Summer (a heart surgeon)\nin his write-up: \"Would a heart surgeon be privy to undetectable drugs\nwhich might mimic cardiac arrest or be useful in obtaining them?\" If heat\nis associated with death, then Summer living in Kokolik City would seem to\nanswer this question in the negative. If cold is associated with death,\nthen the opposite. How do you see hot/cold? Certaintly Ern associates\nheat with his ultimate demise, but at the same time heat is necessarily\nabout change and life is nothing if not change. I generally associate cold\nwith lack of change/death. This is odd for Ern because he associates heat\nwith death but maybe it is a necessary heat and death is necessary for\nlife. Earth is blue/cold/death because humanity has retired. Is this what\nyou are going for Marc? Marc's write-up says: \"I think the burning man is\na metaphor for humanity, complacent in its damnation, rather than a literal\nstatement about Ern as an individual.\" But if humanity is complacent and\nretired and cold and blue and dead isn't the burning man a metaphor for the\nirrational fear the dead have of life? Ern isn't scared of being\nincinerated because he is scared of dying, it's because he's scared of\nliving.\n\nKokolik River - Wikipedia \nThe Kokolik River is a stream, 200 miles (320 km) long, in the western\nNorth Slope of the U.S. state of Alaska. It rises in the De Long Mountains\nof the western Brooks Range and flows generally north and northwest into\nthe Kasegaluk Lagoon. The river mouth is 1 mile (1.6 km) east of Point Lay,\non the Chukchi Sea of the Arctic Ocean.. Its Inuit name, Kokolik, refers to\nthe alpine bistort, an ...\nen.wikipedia.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-02T08:26:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On second thought, March does make Spring innately related to Mars. But the\nJuno association of summer doesn’t do much in this case and I think the\n“choked by a snake” mars has some other connotation. I find the hot and\ncold associations much easier to try to contextualize." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-02T12:55:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here, paradise is water and the desert with its sands of eternity impede\nprogress, like arabella’s Poem of feet dragging across the desert with\nboots that can never be free from the sands of time .\n\nYellow - the car canary is yellow. It seats six and ern and Arabella take\nit to taos towers at the end. While chick wears blue at first, later he\nwears a black overcoat in JULY (summer) when ern gets the drop on him in\nwomen’s clothing. The car Cat is black. So Wolfe is playing a seasonal\ngame, a color game, and maybe a “person” game here. Should chick be at all\ncounted in the yellow group for a time because of his (or her) name? I\nstill think he is a metonymy rather than an actual player in the pre-ern\ndrama which took place - the colors and the symbols tell us what happened\nbefore ern showed up since he can’t know.\n\nNow ... wrestling the man headed and ape headed being of many arms while a\ngrave on mars filled it up with water might be more than a clue that Blue\nis Mars. The red planet ... death .... water fills it up. The red planet is\nchoked by a snake on the cover. Cob is choked by someone with strong hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, October 1, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:\nThe names Arabella and Colette refer both via via vaguely to male catholic\nsaints: Gregory the Great and Nicolas. Relevant?\n\nRed and Blue are primary colors: yellow is missing. Is A Borrowed Man's\nworld a world without a sun? I found a few references to night time but not\nto day time. Is it a world without a salvation, a sort of hell? How would\ntime be measured?\n\nThere is also systematic discrimination of reclones which even sounds a\nbit like negroes.\n\nOp 1-10-2018 om 18:23 schreef Marc Aramini:\n\nThat damn taffy ... Arabella and food. Saltwater, seascape - cold brook.\nFor real though, how is anybody supposed to figure out which of the\nsearchers is most associated with red? And the green ... I think Wolfe\nmapped these colors allegorically onto one particular thing in each case\nbut how we can untangle that is still ... nebulous.\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On October 1, 2018 Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\ninvolved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\ncomedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are a couple of other references to red in the book. Ern says that\nhe wrote a series involving a character called The Red Searcher (pg. 112).\nThere are red leather bar stools at Coldbrook manor (pg. 197). Payne uses\nthe term \"macro-red\" in some inscrutably slangy way: Ern: \"You must find it\nunpleasant, I'm sure.\" Payne: \"You bet we do. It's macro-red. If you can\ntell me anything that might help, I'll be your friend for life, and that's\nno chad, see?\" (pg. 132). Arabella remembers saltwater taffy that came in\na box decorated with a seascape. The taffies themselves were in \"red,\nblue, and green wrappers\". (pg. 91). RBG in Wolfe-land does not make me\nthink of a Supreme Court Justice.\n\n------------------------------\n*From:* Urth on behalf of\nurth-request at lists.urth.net \n*Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:35 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* Urth Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8\n\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n 2. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n 3. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Robert Pirkola)\n 4. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 04:49:18 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\nAuto correct strikes: were is weer.\n\nOn Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\nequations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret,\nwhere the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that\nbook of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\nArabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich\nspeaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of John\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "URL: \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 05:51:13 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-02T12:56:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The other dream Ern has when he is locked in the room by Payne and Fish is\none in which he opens a book and Arabella comes out, but then later he\nforces Colette into a book, struggling to get her back on the shelf. Is\nthis like the dream struggle around the watery grave on Mars?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, October 2, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHere, paradise is water and the desert with its sands of eternity impede\nprogress, like arabella’s Poem of feet dragging across the desert with\nboots that can never be free from the sands of time .\n\nYellow - the car canary is yellow. It seats six and ern and Arabella take\nit to taos towers at the end. While chick wears blue at first, later he\nwears a black overcoat in JULY (summer) when ern gets the drop on him in\nwomen’s clothing. The car Cat is black. So Wolfe is playing a seasonal\ngame, a color game, and maybe a “person” game here. Should chick be at all\ncounted in the yellow group for a time because of his (or her) name? I\nstill think he is a metonymy rather than an actual player in the pre-ern\ndrama which took place - the colors and the symbols tell us what happened\nbefore ern showed up since he can’t know.\n\nNow ... wrestling the man headed and ape headed being of many arms while a\ngrave on mars filled it up with water might be more than a clue that Blue\nis Mars. The red planet ... death .... water fills it up. The red planet is\nchoked by a snake on the cover. Cob is choked by someone with strong hands.\n\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The names Arabella and Colette refer both via via vaguely to male\ncatholic saints: Gregory the Great and Nicolas. Relevant?\n\nRed and Blue are primary colors: yellow is missing. Is A Borrowed Man's\nworld a world without a sun? I found a few references to night time but not\nto day time. Is it a world without a salvation, a sort of hell? How would\ntime be measured?\n\nThere is also systematic discrimination of reclones which even sounds a\nbit like negroes.\n\nOp 1-10-2018 om 18:23 schreef Marc Aramini:\n\nThat damn taffy ... Arabella and food. Saltwater, seascape - cold brook.\nFor real though, how is anybody supposed to figure out which of the\nsearchers is most associated with red? And the green ... I think Wolfe\nmapped these colors allegorically onto one particular thing in each case\nbut how we can untangle that is still ... nebulous.\n\nOn Monday, October 1, 2018, Robert Pirkola wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On October 1, 2018 Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And violet is more of a mix between blue and red, the color of the planets\ninvolved. However, besides the red cars (Geraldine, female persona of male\ncomedian flip Wilson) ... what is red? What to do with this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are a couple of other references to red in the book. Ern says\nthat he wrote a series involving a character called The Red Searcher (pg.\n112). There are red leather bar stools at Coldbrook manor (pg. 197).\nPayne uses the term \"macro-red\" in some inscrutably slangy way: Ern: \"You\nmust find it unpleasant, I'm sure.\" Payne: \"You bet we do. It's\nmacro-red. If you can tell me anything that might help, I'll be your\nfriend for life, and that's no chad, see?\" (pg. 132). Arabella remembers\nsaltwater taffy that came in a box decorated with a seascape. The taffies\nthemselves were in \"red, blue, and green wrappers\". (pg. 91). RBG in\nWolfe-land does not make me think of a Supreme Court Justice.\n\n------------------------------\n*From:* Urth on behalf of\nurth-request at lists.urth.net \n*Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:35 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* Urth Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8\n\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n 2. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n 3. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Robert Pirkola)\n 4. Re: Borrowed Man writeup (Marc Aramini)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 04:49:18 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Borrowed Man writeup\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\nAuto correct strikes: were is weer.\n\nOn Sunday, September 30, 2018, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Also, roglich gives them a second book in a blue binding. It has\nequations. Equations are mentioned as omitted on page 221 as a secret,\nwhere the burning man imagery starts. There are multiple copies of that\nbook of equations, on the second shelf. I think that resonates with\nArabella... but why equations? It is also to the bookcase that Roglich\nspeaks.\nI think after 2001 Wolfe put more and more exposition in the embedded\nsymbols - they have been there before even Peace (Ben yahya- son of\nJohn\n(were), Elia- olive: Olivia etc but now they are\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "URL: \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 05:51:13 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-02T15:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On October 1, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnd those sandwiches are part of the swan-n-sweetheart spiking of the\nchocolate which may or may not have greased the slippery slope to hell" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Swan-N-Sweetheart is interesting for reasons you already pointed out in the write-up. That is to say, we need to pay attention\nto its obvious reference to Cob and his fiance. I think this is very important to the story because of things that Greg Kurzawa pointed out\nwhen we were talking about this shortly after the book's release. Back on December 14, 2015, he wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When EAS2 escapes from\nFish and Payne he heads for the bus station with the intent of rescuing\nColette from her kidnapper(s). He writes: \"... I was the cat ... Now it\nwas Puss in Boots time, and Colette was the Marquis of Carabas.\"\n\nIn the Puss in Boots story, the Marquis of Carabas was a low-born fraud.\nPuss, using deceit and trickery, gets him married to the son of a king.\nTo me, this is a dead giveaway that Colette is not who she says she is.\nThe girl we know as Colette is a low-born fraud. We know that Conrad\nColdbrook Jr. (\"Cob\") had a fiancee, but we're not told anything about\nher. Could this fiancee be the girl pretending to be Colette throughout\nthe entire book? She's included in the family painting in the sunroom,\nbut who's to say this isn't Cob and his fiancee, rather than Cob and his\nsister? They are holding hands, after all. And Conrad Sr. has one hand\non his wife's shoulder, and another on his son's, almost as if to\ndeclare, 'these are mine. The girl ... not so much.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always found this hard to argue with. The question really is, as Greg says just after the quoted material, who is the fiance really?\nTo that end, I think it is helpful to remember this odd bit. Ern asks himself whether Swan-N-Sweetheart is \"brandy or whiskey\" (pg. 100).\nI think I mentioned this years ago, but I'll do it again. E&J Brandy is a very popular brand. So is Canadian Club for the whiskey side. Canadian Club\nis a CC, just like Collette. This might help bolster Greg's contention that the fiance is playing at being Collette. But the E&J is interesting too, if not\nfor the same reasons. Ern is an \"E\" name. Joanne (Collette's mother) is a \"J\". Does this suggest that they were involved somehow? Perhaps years ago when Ern\nwas a living human?\n\nNotice that Collette's mother's name is Joanne *Rebecca* Carole Coldbrook. There are suggestions that she was suicidal. I think it is helpful to recall the plot points of the famous novel/film *Rebecca* in this light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_(1940_film)#Plot. See what I mean? Supposed to be suicidal but really murdered. There is an extramarital pregnancy as well just to complicate things. But that might tie in with the E&J stuff I mentioned before. If Conrad Sr. killed Joanne because of an extramarital affair a la *Rebecca* and she was carrying Ern's baby at the time, that would be provide him a significant motive for murdering Conrad Sr. This ties back to\nErn's name meaning, as I have point out earlier, \"the true striker (killer)\".\n\nA final note as well on the Puss in Boots bit. Marc, you've pointed out several times the cat motif that goes through the story. Puss in Boots adds to that. Perhaps following the cat references can point us towards the fiance.\n[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Rebecca_1940_film_poster.jpg]\n\nRebecca (1940 film) - Wikipedia\nRebecca is a 1940 American romantic psychological thriller film directed by Alfred Hitchcock.It was Hitchcock's first American project, and his first film under contract with producer David O. Selznick.The screenplay by Robert E. Sherwood and Joan Harrison, and adaptation by Philip MacDonald and Michael Hogan, were based on the 1938 novel of the same name by Daphne du Maurier.\nen.wikipedia.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-02T15:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On October 1, 2018 Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe problem of course is that much like “violet” eyes being a mix or blue\nand red I think spring is a mix of hot and cold (?). If she were named\nwinter it would be clear. She’s a teacher in new money. Colette is a\nteacher with money living in Taos Towers- also vaguely Spanish sounding in\ni>ts implications. But there’s no reason not to believe that Mrs Peters has\ntwo children - and I don’t think a surgeon would try to take the identity\nof a school teacher unless the pay off were huge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think there is any reason to hesitate at this point. The mix of hot and cold in violet is clear to me. Spring\nis a mix of hot and cold. Spring is the daughter of the housekeeper and probably spent some time at the Coldbrook\nmanor in her youth, perhaps enough to have Cob fall in love with her. She comes back and impersonates Collette and\ntakes on violet eyes because of her mixed nature. Nuevo Dinero (new money) also suggests that she has married up. With\nCob's death, she would come into money if they were married. How did the inheritance go again? Mrs. Peters could be\na schemer like Ms. Danvers in *Rebecca*, looking to get her daughter set up at any cost." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2018-10-03T13:02:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On October 1, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:\nRed and Blue are primary colors: yellow is missing. Is A Borrowed Man's\nworld a world without a sun? I found a few references to night time but\nnot to day time. Is it a world without a salvation, a sort of hell? How\nwould time be measured?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sun's out, buns out! ?The sky was as lovely a blue as that of the other world, if not better;\nour own yellow star, the star we call Sol, shone brightly. (pg. 198)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<60c96d3a-1182-0f69-b095-709e4901b1fc@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-10-03T15:37:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borrowed Man writeup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks\n\n\nOp 3-10-2018 om 15:02 schreef Robert Pirkola:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On October 1, 2018, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Red and Blue are primary colors: yellow is missing. Is A Borrowed Man's\nworld a world without a sun? I found a few references to night time but\nnot to day time. Is it a world without a salvation, a sort of hell? How\nwould time be measured?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sun's out, buns out!? ?The sky was as lovely a blue as that of the \nother world, if not better;\nour own yellow star, the star we call Sol, shone brightly. (pg. 198).\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }