{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6829", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6829, "subject": "Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "messages": 25, "voices": 12, "first": "2020-01-26T19:44:12+00:00", "last": "2020-01-29T13:14:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<53102842.635703.1580067852582@mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Gem Caccetta", "address": "gemcaccetta at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2020-01-26T19:44:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently came across a three volume set of short stories and novellas called the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, edited by Ben Bova in 1975. One of the novellas titled Universe, by Robert Heinlein, (written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent off long ago to inhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of the descendants remember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they do remember has degenerated into religious superstition. There is a “Jordan’s Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, Joe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has learned of the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious man Hugh, captured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main control room and shown the stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of the ship and complete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1c23d6d813cd4bca94d95b69faa2fabd@qimrberghofer.edu.au>", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimrberghofer.edu.au" }, "date": "2020-01-27T07:01:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<53102842.635703.1580067852582@mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sure that is one allusion, but the other I am sure of (more so for BotNS) is to the end of _A Canticle for Lebowitz_.\n\nCheers, David Duffy.\n________________________________________\nFrom: Urth on behalf of Gem Caccetta \nSent: Monday, 27 January 2020 5:44 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI recently came across a three volume set of short stories and novellas called the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, edited by Ben Bova in 1975. One of the novellas titled Universe, by Robert Heinlein, (written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent off long ago to inhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of the descendants remember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they do remember has degenerated into religious superstition. There is a “Jordan’s Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, Joe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has learned of the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious man Hugh, captured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main control room and shown the stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of the ship and complete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8397c1e1-65a8-2d68-ba9f-7ed0fbe002df@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T14:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<53102842.635703.1580067852582@mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/01/2020 19:44, Gem Caccetta wrote:\nI recently came across a three volume set of short stories and \nnovellas called the /Science Fiction Hall of Fame/, edited by Ben Bova \nin 1975. One of the novellas titled /Universe/, by Robert Heinlein, \n(written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent off \nlong ago to inhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of \nthe descendants remember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they \ndo remember has degenerated into religious superstition. There is a \n“Jordan’s Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, \nJoe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has learned \nof the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious man Hugh, \ncaptured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main control room and shown \nthe stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of the ship and \ncomplete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly \na dime a dozen!? But that said, there are a lot of generation ship sagas \nwith some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding \nthe trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe) \nknow what the deal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without \norders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the \nCargo - or the educated ones - actually know they are on a generation \nship too, though they have put it to the back of their minds in favour \nof matters related to day to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS \nitself has a similar theme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl \nignores global warming insofar as it means any change in lifestyle!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2020-01-27T14:57:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<8397c1e1-65a8-2d68-ba9f-7ed0fbe002df@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On January 27, 2020 9:15:27 AM EST, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 26/01/2020 19:44, Gem Caccetta wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recently came across a three volume set of short stories and \nnovellas called the /Science Fiction Hall of Fame/, edited by Ben\nBova \nin 1975. One of the novellas titled /Universe/, by Robert Heinlein, \n(written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent\noff \nlong ago to inhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of \nthe descendants remember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "do remember has degenerated into religious superstition. There is a \n“Jordan’s Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, \nJoe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has learned" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious man Hugh, \ncaptured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main control room and shown \nthe stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of the ship and \ncomplete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly\n\na dime a dozen!? But that said, there are a lot of generation ship\nsagas \nwith some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding \nthe trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe) \nknow what the deal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without \norders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the\n\nCargo - or the educated ones - actually know they are on a generation \nship too, though they have put it to the back of their minds in favour \nof matters related to day to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS \nitself has a similar theme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl \nignores global warming insofar as it means any change in lifestyle!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-27T15:21:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\nBest,\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of David Stockhoff\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:57 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: [EXTERNAL] Re: (urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nOn January 27, 2020 9:15:27 AM EST, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n\nOn 26/01/2020 19:44, Gem Caccetta wrote:\nI recently came across a three volume set of short stories and novellas called the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, edited by Ben Bova in 1975. One of the novellas titled Universe, by Robert Heinlein, (written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent off long ago to inhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of the descendants remember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they do remember has degenerated into religious superstition. There is a “Jordan’s Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, Joe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has learned of the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious man Hugh, captured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main control room and shown the stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of the ship and complete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?\n\n\nCertainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly a dime a dozen! But that said, there are a lot of generation ship sagas with some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding the trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe) know what the deal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without orders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the Cargo - or the educated ones - actually know they are on a generation ship too, though they have put it to the back of their minds in favour of matters related to day to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS itself has a similar theme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl ignores global warming insofar as it means any change in lifestyle!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk." } ] }, { "message_id": "<159454775.1023236.1580140328725@mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Gem Caccetta", "address": "gemcaccetta at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T15:52:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Gerry--I certainly would expect Wolfe to expand on (and make more interesting!) the generation ship saga. I was seeing the similarities as more of a possible homage to Heinlein. Oh, and another similarity I forgot to mention: in Heinlein's story the descendants are called \"Freight\".-Gem\n\nOn January 27,2020 Gerry Quinn wrote:\nCertainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly a dime a dozen!? But that said, there are a lot of generation ship sagas with some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding the trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe)?know what the deal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without orders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the Cargo - or the educated ones - actually know they are on a generation ship too, though they have put it to the back of their minds in favour of matters related to day to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS itself has a similar theme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl ignores global warming insofar as it means any change in lifestyle!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2020-01-27T16:15:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great point. I have not read much Heinlein criticism, but those roads \nalways symbolized for me Heinlein's belief in the inevitability of \ntechnological and (libertarian) social progress. If they work the same \nway in The Land Across, it could only be satirical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/27/2020 10:21 AM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson wrote:\n\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced \nby Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my \nopinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads \nearly in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a \nhint.\n\nBest,\n\nRick\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *David \nStockhoff\n*Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 9:57 AM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: (urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\n On 26/01/2020 19:44, Gem Caccetta wrote:\n\n I recently came across a three volume set of short stories and\n novellas called the /Science Fiction Hall of Fame/, edited by\n Ben Bova in 1975. One of the novellas titled /Universe/, by\n Robert Heinlein, (written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a\n generation ship sent off long ago to inhabit another planet,\n but now drifting because none of the descendants remember the\n nature or purpose of the ship. What they do remember has\n degenerated into religious superstition. There is a “Jordan’s\n Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant,\n Joe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has\n learned of the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious\n man Hugh, captured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main\n control room and shown the stars. Hugh enlists others to take\n control of the ship and complete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<75af8f6d-0c46-9da6-10e1-daf8dd2ebcdc@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T16:46:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<159454775.1023236.1580140328725@mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 27/01/2020 15:52, Gem Caccetta wrote:\nHi Gerry--I certainly would expect Wolfe to expand on (and make more \ninteresting!) the generation ship saga. I was seeing the similarities \nas more of a possible homage to Heinlein.\nOh, and another similarity I forgot to mention: in Heinlein's story \nthe descendants are called \"Freight\".\n-Gem" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, that's a telling similarity. It seems very much like the \nHeinlein was on his mind!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On January 27,2020 Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nCertainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't \nexactly a dime a dozen!? But that said, there are a lot of generation \nship sagas with some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual \nfor avoiding the trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the \nGods/Mainframe) know what the deal is, though it looks like they are \nparalysed without orders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade \nthe Cargo. And the Cargo - or the educated ones - actually know they \nare on a generation ship too, though they have put it to the back of \ntheir minds in favour of matters related to day to day life (I think \nWolfe suggested BotNS itself has a similar theme). Kind of like how \neveryone on this whorl ignores global warming insofar as it means any \nchange in lifestyle!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T17:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Andr?-driussi sees it as a rolling roads reference but I think it\nis another of these damn symbols that show graton?s “training” and the\ninfluence on his life after the engine gets switched out in the train - the\nblack road - the man in black and his possession, the White path, the woman\nin white with the hand, and the red, the woman with the red pen and Russ\nRathaus. Three paths, three border guards etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, January 27, 2020, Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by\nHeinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion,\nI’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the\nnovel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *David\nStockhoff\n*Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 9:57 AM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: (urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\n\n\nOn January 27, 2020 9:15:27 AM EST, Gerry Quinn \nwrote:\n\n\n\nOn 26/01/2020 19:44, Gem Caccetta wrote:\n\nI recently came across a three volume set of short stories and novellas\ncalled the *Science Fiction Hall of Fame*, edited by Ben Bova in 1975.\nOne of the novellas titled *Universe*, by Robert Heinlein, (written in\n1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent off long ago to\ninhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of the descendants\nremember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they do remember has\ndegenerated into religious superstition. There is a “Jordan’s Plan” for the\nship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, Joe-Jim, a highly intelligent\nleader of a mutant gang who has learned of the Ship’s true nature. There is\na young, curious man Hugh, captured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main\ncontrol room and shown the stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of\nthe ship and complete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?\n\n\n\nCertainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly a\ndime a dozen! But that said, there are a lot of generation ship sagas with\nsome similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding the trope\nof complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe) know what the\ndeal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without orders from Pas,\nor they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the Cargo - or the\neducated ones - actually know they are on a generation ship too, though\nthey have put it to the back of their minds in favour of matters related to\nday to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS itself has a similar\ntheme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl ignores global warming\ninsofar as it means any change in lifestyle!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002b01d5d537$f4762a40$dd627ec0$@hwaet.com>", "from": { "name": "Eric Bourland", "address": "eb at hwaet.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T17:33:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<75af8f6d-0c46-9da6-10e1-daf8dd2ebcdc@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really interesting allusion / homage. I do not have the Bova books in my library . . . maybe I will look for them. Eric\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n*******\n\nEric Bourland\n\nhttps://www.hwaet.com/\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\nFrom: Urth On Behalf Of Gerry Quinn\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 11:46 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\n \n\n \n\nOn 27/01/2020 15:52, Gem Caccetta wrote:\n\nHi Gerry--I certainly would expect Wolfe to expand on (and make more interesting!) the generation ship saga. I was seeing the similarities as more of a possible homage to Heinlein. \n\nOh, and another similarity I forgot to mention: in Heinlein's story the descendants are called \"Freight\".\n\n-Gem\n\nIndeed, that's a telling similarity. It seems very much like the Heinlein was on his mind!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n \n\nOn January 27,2020 Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n \n\nCertainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly a dime a dozen! But that said, there are a lot of generation ship sagas with some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding the trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe) know what the deal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without orders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the Cargo - or the educated ones - actually know they are on a generation ship too, though they have put it to the back of their minds in favour of matters related to day to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS itself has a similar theme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl ignores global warming insofar as it means any change in lifestyle!\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy15 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T21:47:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Appreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder\nthat RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall\nmight put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads\nMust Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in\nH.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a\nnoticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have\nbeen asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several\n\"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of\na dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing\nfactions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like\nWolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31\nFlavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a\nconversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so\nshort?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's\nmysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with\nthe imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A\nBorrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man,\nand I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by\nHeinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion,\nI’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the\nnovel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T22:24:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What also needs mentioning is that the \"generation starship\" was not a new\nconcept with Heinlein either. What he originated (as far as I know) is the\nidea that the people aboard might forget the nature of their habitation.\n\nLeave it to Wolfe to nuance the hell out of that idea.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 1:47 PM Stephen Hoy wrote:\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder\nthat RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall\nmight put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads\nMust Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in\nH.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a\nnoticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have\nbeen asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several\n\"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of\na dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing\nfactions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like\nWolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31\nFlavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a\nconversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so\nshort?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's\nmysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with\nthe imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A\nBorrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man,\nand I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by\nHeinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion,\nI’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the\nnovel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-27T22:31:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a younger reader, Heinlein has always seemed like the distant past to\nme, but of course he's not.\n\nSurely Wolfe and Heinlein must have met, and probably more than once? I\nthink there was a period when both were David Hartwell authors too, though\nI think Hartwell only worked with Heinlein towards the end of the author's\ncareer, when he seemed allergic to editing.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:25 PM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhat also needs mentioning is that the \"generation starship\" was not a new\nconcept with Heinlein either. What he originated (as far as I know) is the\nidea that the people aboard might forget the nature of their habitation.\n\nLeave it to Wolfe to nuance the hell out of that idea.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 1:47 PM Stephen Hoy \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Appreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder\nthat RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall\nmight put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The\nRoads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA,\nin H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a\nnoticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have\nbeen asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several\n\"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler\nof a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing\nfactions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like\nWolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31\nFlavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a\nconversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so\nshort?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's\nmysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with\nthe imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A\nBorrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man,\nand I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by\nHeinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion,\nI’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the\nnovel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-28T00:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stephen, there’s a ton going on with the Perseus/andromeda/cassiopeia\nimagery - the mountain top where gideon (the destroyer) sits and faces\ncassiopeia - Perseus means the destroyer and he saves andromeda from the\nsea monster. Perseus is born in a shower of gold and at the end when reis\nhits the city of r?lyeh with a shower of gold - great Cthulhu will fragment\ninto gideon chase, Perseus will be born to meddle backwards in time, as the\nfuture is the past in evil guest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, January 27, 2020, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder\nthat RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall\nmight put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads\nMust Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in\nH.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a\nnoticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have\nbeen asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several\n\"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of\na dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing\nfactions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like\nWolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31\nFlavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a\nconversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so\nshort?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's\nmysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with\nthe imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A\nBorrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man,\nand I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by\nHeinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion,\nI’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the\nnovel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Gillingham", "address": "charlesgillingham at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-28T03:02:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<8397c1e1-65a8-2d68-ba9f-7ed0fbe002df@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My father explained the plot of, but forgot the name of, Universe.\nThanks for pointing this out, I'll reads it now!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:19 AM Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nOn 26/01/2020 19:44, Gem Caccetta wrote:\n\nI recently came across a three volume set of short stories and novellas called the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, edited by Ben Bova in 1975. One of the novellas titled Universe, by Robert Heinlein, (written in 1941) takes place on the ?Ship??a generation ship sent off long ago to inhabit another planet, but now drifting because none of the descendants remember the nature or purpose of the ship. What they do remember has degenerated into religious superstition. There is a “Jordan’s Plan” for the ship. There is a powerful two-headed mutant, Joe-Jim, a highly intelligent leader of a mutant gang who has learned of the Ship’s true nature. There is a young, curious man Hugh, captured by Joe-Jim, who is taken to the main control room and shown the stars. Hugh enlists others to take control of the ship and complete Jordan’s Plan?.sound familiar?\n\nCertainly a few commonalities there - two headed mutants aren't exactly a dime a dozen! But that said, there are a lot of generation ship sagas with some similar features. Wolfe's Long Sun is unusual for avoiding the trope of complete forgetfulness. The Crew (and the Gods/Mainframe) know what the deal is, though it looks like they are paralysed without orders from Pas, or they don't know how to persuade the Cargo. And the Cargo - or the educated ones - actually know they are on a generation ship too, though they have put it to the back of their minds in favour of matters related to day to day life (I think Wolfe suggested BotNS itself has a similar theme). Kind of like how everyone on this whorl ignores global warming insofar as it means any change in lifestyle!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-28T12:57:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Hoy\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\nBest,\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2020-01-28T13:12:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of all the Land Across interpretations I have read so far, this is the \nmost immediately useful. Handy, even." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/28/2020 7:57 AM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson wrote:\n\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is \nHeinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What \nGrafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. \nHeinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, \nloves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a \nmysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of \n*Stephen Hoy\n*Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a \nreminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as \nChristopher Nuttall might put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the?conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The \nRoads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with \nTLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title \nrecalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me \nthat I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed\" \nfollowed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential \nruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between \nopposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. \nIt's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to \nAndromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to \nBoris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that \nconductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack \nof stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of \nTLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on \nalong with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in \nHome Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some \nsort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in \nThe Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson \n> wrote:\n\n Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly\n influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This\n is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the\n Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the\n plot, I take as a hint.\n\n Best,\n\n Rick\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-28T15:32:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is safe to say that Heinlein *never *\"loved\" or advocated a\nmilitary dictatorship.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s\nclassic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is\nwhat Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts\nout as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a\nmilitary dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as\nHeinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Stephen\nHoy\n*Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\n\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder\nthat RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall\nmight put it.\n\n\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads\nMust Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in\nH.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a\nnoticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have\nbeen asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several\n\"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\n\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of\na dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing\nfactions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like\nWolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31\nFlavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a\nconversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so\nshort?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\n\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's\nmysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with\nthe imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A\nBorrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man,\nand I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n\n\n- Stephen\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\n\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by\nHeinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion,\nI’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the\nnovel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-28T16:04:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.\n\nI love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out to be cannibals. One area where he did become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.\n\nBest,\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI think it is safe to say that Heinlein never \"loved\" or advocated a military dictatorship.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Hoy\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\nBest,\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "<120ba054-493e-a019-9bae-ba6d317b479e@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-28T16:43:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like so many he 'evolved' from a liberal to a conservative point of view \npolitically while getting older. Churchill made a famous remark about \nthis phenomenon but in this case Heinleins fear of communism and the \nbomb played probably a larger role. According to /Astounding/ (by Alec \nNevala-Lee) Heinlein went into politics in 1933 because of his \nadmiration for Upton Sinclair, a progressive socialist.(page 109) Later \non he became an adherent of Barry Goldwater like Heinlein a libertarian \nand opponent of the New Deal. It is ironic that the hippies who were \ndetested by Heinlein embraced /Stranger in a Strange Land/.(pages 338-340)\n\nNevala-Lee's book is informative about Campbell, Ron Hubbard, Heinlein \nand Asimov. The whole business of mental technology, Korzybsky, \nDianetics and Scientology, is pretty interesting though treated \nindirectly by the author.\n\nOp 28-1-2020 om 16:32 schreef Dan'l Danehy-Oakes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is safe to say that Heinlein /never /\"loved\" or advocated a \nmilitary dictatorship.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n/Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!/\n/--/T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson \n> wrote:\n\n Other Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is\n Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What\n Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career.\n Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like\n Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military\n dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as\n Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\n Rick Norwood\n\n *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\n ] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Hoy\n *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\n *To:* The Urth Mailing List >\n *Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The\n Long Sun\n\n Appreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a\n reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as\n Christopher Nuttall might put it.\n\n The interesting bit about the?conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's\n The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better\n fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899).\n Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now\n it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I\n got into bed\" followed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\n Note that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential\n ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle\n between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much\n beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as\n an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or\n the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA,\n \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw\n attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\n Aramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of\n TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning\n going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is\n found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's\n cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think\n something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n - Stephen\n\n On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson\n > wrote:\n\n Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly\n influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein.\n This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say\n this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no\n other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\n Best,\n\n Rick\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-28T18:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a better question.\n\nHave *you* read *Starship Troopers*? Because you're making a false\nstatement about it. \"Only people who have served in the military can vote\"\n- thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who have\nperformed *some sort of government service* can vote. What is also true is\nthat *most *of this is *not* military service - for example, there's the\nguy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the\nvote has to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve the people\nwhom your vote will help govern.\n\n*Farnham's Freehold* is a failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic\nwar would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. As a\nside issue, he also wanted to show that race prejudice is bad by flipping\nit over and putting whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the\ncannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that it can't serve its\nintended purposes.\n\n*Stranger*? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is\nstrongly implied that Mike *does* have physical love with males as well as\nfemales. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least experimented\nwith another man when he was young.\n\nYou're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that\nHeinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the\nmilitary can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it has been proved\nmathematically that this is the best government.\n\nI love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it does\nglorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more\nconservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out\nto be cannibals. One area where he did become more liberal was\nhomosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the\nview that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for\nLove, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who\nHeinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the\nfacts of life.\n\n\n\nBest,\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Dan'l\nDanehy-Oakes\n*Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\n\n\nI think it is safe to say that Heinlein *never *\"loved\" or advocated a\nmilitary dictatorship.\n\n\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\n\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s\nclassic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is\nwhat Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts\nout as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a\nmilitary dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as\nHeinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Stephen\nHoy\n*Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-29T12:46:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting my memory — that it was “government service” rather than “military service”. Just from memory, I thought all government service, including work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I’ll remember to look out for that next time I read the book.\n\nI also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The childbirth scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve read. I do not agree that his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. The life on the Freehold seemed, in many ways ideal. “Free Kittens!”\n\nTo what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless debate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, you hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of prejudice, even though I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work.\n\nBest,\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI have a better question.\n\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Because you're making a false statement about it. \"Only people who have served in the military can vote\" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who have performed some sort of government service can vote. What is also true is that most of this is not military service - for example, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.\n\nFarnham's Freehold is a failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.\n\nStranger? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is strongly implied that Mike does have physical love with males as well as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least experimented with another man when he was young.\n\nYou're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.\n\nI love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out to be cannibals. One area where he did become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.\n\nBest,\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI think it is safe to say that Heinlein never \"loved\" or advocated a military dictatorship.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Hoy\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\nBest,\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-29T12:50:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "P.S. Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned Heinlein only in the context of Wolfe’s The Land Across. I’m sure there is a Heinlein thread for discussing Heinlein apart from Wolfe. Let’s go back to Wolfe.\n\nBest,\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Norwood, Frederick Hudson\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI’ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting my memory — that it was “government service” rather than “military service”. Just from memory, I thought all government service, including work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I’ll remember to look out for that next time I read the book.\n\nI also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The childbirth scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve read. I do not agree that his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. The life on the Freehold seemed, in many ways ideal. “Free Kittens!”\n\nTo what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless debate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, you hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of prejudice, even though I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work.\n\nBest,\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI have a better question.\n\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Because you're making a false statement about it. \"Only people who have served in the military can vote\" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who have performed some sort of government service can vote. What is also true is that most of this is not military service - for example, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.\n\nFarnham's Freehold is a failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.\n\nStranger? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is strongly implied that Mike does have physical love with males as well as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least experimented with another man when he was young.\n\nYou're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.\n\nI love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out to be cannibals. One area where he did become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.\n\nBest,\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI think it is safe to say that Heinlein never \"loved\" or advocated a military dictatorship.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Hoy\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\nBest,\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "<24df933e-158d-d830-b9bd-6f2b89ee8cd1@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-29T13:06:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a \nchristian misogynist. To compare Wolfe and Heinlein? in the ways they \ngive expression to political ideas proves I think Wolfe the more subtle. \nI think Wolfe values self reliance but is aware of human limitation and \nevil. He is no ideologist as Heinlein might be considered though his \nideas changed from left to right. Wolfe neither sanctifies the market \nnor the state and is critical of both. His books are not a direct and \nobtrusive mouthpiece for his faith.\n\nOp 29-1-2020 om 13:50 schreef Norwood, Frederick Hudson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "P.S. Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned \nHeinlein only in the context of Wolfe’s The Land Across. I’m sure \nthere is a Heinlein thread for discussing Heinlein apart from Wolfe. \nLet’s go back to Wolfe.\n\nBest,\n\nRick Norwood\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of \n*Norwood, Frederick Hudson\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI’ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting \nmy memory — that it was “government service” rather than “military \nservice”. Just from memory, I thought all government service, \nincluding work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I’ll \nremember to look out for that next time I read the book.\n\nI also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The childbirth \nscene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve read. I do not agree \nthat his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out \nthe kind of civilization we appreciate. The life on the Freehold \nseemed, in many ways ideal. “Free Kittens!”\n\nTo what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a \nway for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless \ndebate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, \nyou hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of prejudice, even \nthough I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work.\n\nBest,\n\nRick Norwood\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Dan'l \nDanehy-Oakes\n*Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List >\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI have a better question.\n\nHave /you/?read */Starship Troopers/*? Because you're making a false \nstatement about it. \"Only people who have served in the military can \nvote\" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who \nhave performed /some sort of government service/?can vote. What is \nalso true is that /most /of this is /not/?military service - for \nexample, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. \nThe idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you \nare willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.\n\n*/Farnham's Freehold/*?is a failed novel. His goal was to show that \natomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we \nappreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race \nprejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave \nclass. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole \nbook so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.\n\n*/Stranger/*? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is \nstrongly implied that Mike /does/?have physical love with males as \nwell as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least \nexperimented with another man when he was young.\n\nYou're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that \nHeinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n/Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!/\n\n/--/T?a???ke Witk?\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson \n> wrote:\n\n Have you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in\n the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it\n has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.\n\n I love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it\n does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics\n got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming\n Black people turn out to? be cannibals. One area where he did\n become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange\n Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have\n sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just\n fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and\n admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.\n\n Best,\n\n Rick\n\n *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\n ] *On Behalf Of *Dan'l\n Danehy-Oakes\n *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-29T13:14:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun", "in_reply_to": "<24df933e-158d-d830-b9bd-6f2b89ee8cd1@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly Wolfe is more subtle than Heinlein, but then Wolfe is more subtle than just about everybody. There is a lot of fun to be had in trying to figure out what Wolfe is doing. On the other hand, he always has an entertaining surface story to tell, and can be enjoyed even by readers who are not interested in solving the puzzles he poses.\n\nI’ve never read anything Wolfe said about Heinlein, though I would love to do so if anyone can recommend anything. I do think it is clear that Wolfe read a lot of Heinlein, and equally clear that Wolfe had strong opinions about everything he read, whether he expressed them or not.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Ab de Vos\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 8:07 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\n\nI believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist. To compare Wolfe and Heinlein in the ways they give expression to political ideas proves I think Wolfe the more subtle. I think Wolfe values self reliance but is aware of human limitation and evil. He is no ideologist as Heinlein might be considered though his ideas changed from left to right. Wolfe neither sanctifies the market nor the state and is critical of both. His books are not a direct and obtrusive mouthpiece for his faith.\nOp 29-1-2020 om 13:50 schreef Norwood, Frederick Hudson:\nP.S. Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned Heinlein only in the context of Wolfe’s The Land Across. I’m sure there is a Heinlein thread for discussing Heinlein apart from Wolfe. Let’s go back to Wolfe.\n\nBest,\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Norwood, Frederick Hudson\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI’ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting my memory — that it was “government service” rather than “military service”. Just from memory, I thought all government service, including work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I’ll remember to look out for that next time I read the book.\n\nI also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The childbirth scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve read. I do not agree that his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. The life on the Freehold seemed, in many ways ideal. “Free Kittens!”\n\nTo what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless debate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, you hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of prejudice, even though I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work.\n\nBest,\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI have a better question.\n\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Because you're making a false statement about it. \"Only people who have served in the military can vote\" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who have performed some sort of government service can vote. What is also true is that most of this is not military service - for example, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.\n\nFarnham's Freehold is a failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.\n\nStranger? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is strongly implied that Mike does have physical love with males as well as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least experimented with another man when he was young.\n\nYou're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nHave you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.\n\nI love Starship Troopers. It’s one of my favorite books. But it does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out to be cannibals. One area where he did become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.\n\nBest,\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nI think it is safe to say that Heinlein never \"loved\" or advocated a military dictatorship.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nOther Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Hoy\nSent: Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun\n\nAppreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.\n\nThe interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One \"Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed\" followed by several \"awakenings\" throughout TLA.\n\nNote that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, \"I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?\" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.\n\nAramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.\n\n- Stephen\n\nOn Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nAnother Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.\n\nBest,\nRick" } ] } ] }