{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6830", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6830, "subject": "Wolfe & Women", "messages": 24, "voices": 11, "first": "2020-01-29T19:14:30+00:00", "last": "2020-01-31T17:01:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1272632401.1081888.1580325270444@mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Gem Caccetta", "address": "gemcaccetta at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2020-01-29T19:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. ?Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.\n\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<87db2f6d-b565-5f93-55b3-1d511f9745f7@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2020-01-29T22:21:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<1272632401.1081888.1580325270444@mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 29/01/2020 19:14, Gem Caccetta wrote:\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a \nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on \nthis list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live \nFree interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not \nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t \nlike them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire \nMadame Serpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women \nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, \nbut he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably Barnes doesn't want men either, and can't have them - so \nshould his attitude not be the same? Clearly he is a misanthrope..\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-29T23:02:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<87db2f6d-b565-5f93-55b3-1d511f9745f7@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Barnes is a case of the fox and the grapes. The fox cannot get the \ngrapes he wanted. Afterwards he says they were sour anyway which they \nwere not.\n\nOp 29-1-2020 om 23:21 schreef Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 29/01/2020 19:14, Gem Caccetta wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a \nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on \nthis list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live \nFree interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not \nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t \nlike them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire \nMadame Serpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women \nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some \nwomen, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s \nworth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably Barnes doesn't want men either, and can't have them - so \nshould his attitude not be the same? Clearly he is a misanthrope..\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-30T12:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think there is any doubt at all that Wolfe loved his wife.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Ab de Vos\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 6:02 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: [EXTERNAL] Re: (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\nMaybe Barnes is a case of the fox and the grapes. The fox cannot get the grapes he wanted. Afterwards he says they were sour anyway which they were not.\nOp 29-1-2020 om 23:21 schreef Gerry Quinn:\n\n\nOn 29/01/2020 19:14, Gem Caccetta wrote:\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. ?Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n\n\n\nPresumably Barnes doesn't want men either, and can't have them - so should his attitude not be the same? Clearly he is a misanthrope..\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-30T12:27:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<1272632401.1081888.1580325270444@mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Gem Caccetta\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk." } ] }, { "message_id": "<847bb1af-2963-274a-de9e-9dc6bbb964dc@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-30T13:18:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like the fable of the Fox and the Grapes there is the maxim that the \nGrass is always greener on the other side of the Fence. Both relate to \nthe ways in which the mechanisms of desire subvert rationality. (/Sour \nGrapes/ by Jon Elster) These are common to all men including the \npolitically correct, who may think otherwise from the height of their \nmoral elevation.\n\nOp 30-1-2020 om 13:27 schreef Norwood, Frederick Hudson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically \ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really \ncomplaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem \nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a \nchristian misogynist?\"\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on \nthis list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live \nFree interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not \nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t \nlike them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire \nMadame Serpentina.”\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women \nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, \nbut he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n/The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT \noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when \nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited \nand requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is \nPHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. /\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7DD9E77E-5AAE-4DE8-8F6F-197FDC5EC5DC@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2020-01-30T15:39:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On January 30, 2020 7:27:04 AM EST, \"Norwood, Frederick Hudson\" wrote:\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really\ncomplaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Gem\nCaccetta\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not\nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like\nthem. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame\nSerpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women,\nbut he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited\nand requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is\nPHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no reason whatsoever to ascribe Barnes' attitude to Wolfe. That's not how authorship works. It's far more likely that the thought occasionally occurred to Wolfe as a question---do I actually like women, or do I merely find them necessary?---and he found it interesting enough to use for building a character's interiority. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T16:08:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough\nto remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side of\n\"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem\nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really.\nI want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I\nwant them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but\nhe didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Gillingham", "address": "charlesgillingham at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T17:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is\ncontrolling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or\nplacate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case).\nIt's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But\nsure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go\nahead be as nice as you want." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nRick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old\nenough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side\nof \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem\nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really.\nI want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I\nwant them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but\nhe didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T18:32:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an\nidiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly\nlacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization\nis in decline.\n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <\ncharlesgillingham at gmail.com> wrote:\nControlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which\nis controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or\nplacate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case).\nIt's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But\nsure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go\nahead be as nice as you want.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old\nenough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side\nof \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem\nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not\nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like\nthem. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame\nSerpentina.”\n\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but\nhe didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Gillingham", "address": "charlesgillingham at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T18:51:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Idiot\" is an ableist slur...\n\nSome of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any\ngiven street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti\nin Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution\nisn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as\ndirty and violent as any other battle for survival." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an\nidiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly\nlacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that\ncivilization is in decline.\n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <\ncharlesgillingham at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which\nis controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or\nplacate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case).\nIt's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But\nsure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go\nahead be as nice as you want.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old\nenough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side\nof \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem\nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not\nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like\nthem. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame\nSerpentina.”\n\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but\nhe didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5B836E64-C5C7-40D8-B4DB-6D562AE81B38@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T18:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My view: There is a place for courtesy, and a place for plainspeak. Just like there is a place for biting your tongue, and a place for tough love.\n\nMy other view: We don’t get to control what someone else says, neither legally nor physically, so learning to deal with people who don’t follow your own views on speech (or anything else) is one of the most important skills you can obtain in life.\n\nOne final view: Gene Wolfe was not misogynistic. He once started crying his eyes out while telling me how hard it was when he had to stop writing Cassie’s voice in An Evil Guest.\n\nI know that one anecdote doesn’t summarize a man, or whether a man’s views on women evolved as he grew older, but I find it hard to buy into any flippant high ground aimed at marginalizing Wolfe’s portrayal of women in his literature.\n\n?ryan\n\n\nRyan Dunn, Director\nLiftingfaces\nwww.liftingfaces.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline. \n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham > wrote:\nControlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want. \n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\nRick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side of \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, politeness.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n \n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net ] On Behalf Of Gem Caccetta\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSubject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n \n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n \n \n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n \nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T19:23:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<5B836E64-C5C7-40D8-B4DB-6D562AE81B38@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Y'all are, of course, right that we can't and shouldn't be able to control\nothers' speech.\n\nWe are free, however, to criticize, ignore, and ostracize rude people. And\nthat is what \"political correctness\" means.\n\nThose who are criticized, ignored, and ostracized will protest that they\nare persecuted.\n\nBullshit. (Is that sufficiently plain speech for y'all?)\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 10:56 AM Ryan Dunn wrote:\nMy view: There is a place for courtesy, and a place for plainspeak. Just\nlike there is a place for biting your tongue, and a place for tough love.\n\nMy other view: We don’t get to control what someone else says, neither\nlegally nor physically, so learning to deal with people who don’t follow\nyour own views on speech (or anything else) is one of the most important\nskills you can obtain in life.\n\nOne final view: Gene Wolfe was not misogynistic. He once started crying\nhis eyes out while telling me how hard it was when he had to stop writing\nCassie’s voice in An Evil Guest.\n\nI know that one anecdote doesn’t summarize a man, or whether a man’s views\non women evolved as he grew older, but I find it hard to buy into any\nflippant high ground aimed at marginalizing Wolfe’s portrayal of women in\nhis literature.\n\n“ryan\n\n\n*Ryan Dunn, Director*\nLiftingfaces\nwww.liftingfaces.com\n\n\n\n\nOn Jan 30, 2020, at 1:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an\nidiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly\nlacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that\ncivilization is in decline.\n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a?”?ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <\ncharlesgillingham at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which\nis controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or\nplacate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case).\nIt's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But\nsure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go\nahead be as nice as you want.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old\nenough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side\nof \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem\nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not\nreally. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like\nthem. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame\nSerpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but\nhe didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "james.wynn at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T19:25:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Calling proponents of a position \"politically correct\" is itself a form of\nad hominem. But if it is going to be *defended* as a category, then...\n\nIn my experience, unironic \"political correctness\" gained a very bad\nreputation quite early -- by the late 80s -- because the people advocating\nfor it demonstrated a very low bar for the definition of rudeness when\nencountering ideas they disagreed with and a very permissive bar for the\npunishment that should be meted out for perceived rudeness. They also\ndemonstrated marked blindness for rudeness perpetuated in the name of\n\"political correctness\" (sometimes euphemized \"the common good\"). Nothing\nabout the culture of PC has changed since then, but what has changed is an\nincreased ability of some of its advocates to sequester themselves from the\ncritiques of it and the various subcultures it spawned (callout culture,\ncancel culture, social credit scores).\n\nRather than engaging inaccurate statements with ad hominem (see above), I\nthink it is more effective to engage them with accurate speech untainted by\npersonal emotion.\n\n~ James" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Gillingham", "address": "charlesgillingham at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T19:48:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well said Mr. Wynn.\n\nDiscussions like this, like any discussion where you know what someone will\nsay before they say it, get boring fast. More and more, I'm sure this\ndistinction is genetic, everyone is born with either a L or a P gene. So\ndebate boils down to something like \"well I think brown hair is best\nbecause I have brown hair, \" and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:25 AM James Wynn wrote:\nCalling proponents of a position \"politically correct\" is itself a form of\nad hominem. But if it is going to be *defended* as a category, then...\n\nIn my experience, unironic \"political correctness\" gained a very bad\nreputation quite early -- by the late 80s -- because the people advocating\nfor it demonstrated a very low bar for the definition of rudeness when\nencountering ideas they disagreed with and a very permissive bar for the\npunishment that should be meted out for perceived rudeness. They also\ndemonstrated marked blindness for rudeness perpetuated in the name of\n\"political correctness\" (sometimes euphemized \"the common good\"). Nothing\nabout the culture of PC has changed since then, but what has changed is an\nincreased ability of some of its advocates to sequester themselves from the\ncritiques of it and the various subcultures it spawned (callout culture,\ncancel culture, social credit scores).\n\nRather than engaging inaccurate statements with ad hominem (see above), I\nthink it is more effective to engage them with accurate speech untainted by\npersonal emotion.\n\n~ James\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-30T20:05:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I often think it's comical--Fal, lal, la!\nHow Nature always does contrive--Fal, lal, la!\n That every boy and every gal\n That's born into the world alive\n Is either a little Liberal\n Or else a little Conservative!\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:48 AM Charles Gillingham <\ncharlesgillingham at gmail.com> wrote:\nWell said Mr. Wynn.\n\nDiscussions like this, like any discussion where you know what someone\nwill say before they say it, get boring fast. More and more, I'm sure this\ndistinction is genetic, everyone is born with either a L or a P gene. So\ndebate boils down to something like \"well I think brown hair is best\nbecause I have brown hair, \" and so on.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:25 AM James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Calling proponents of a position \"politically correct\" is itself a form\nof ad hominem. But if it is going to be *defended* as a category, then...\n\nIn my experience, unironic \"political correctness\" gained a very bad\nreputation quite early -- by the late 80s -- because the people advocating\nfor it demonstrated a very low bar for the definition of rudeness when\nencountering ideas they disagreed with and a very permissive bar for the\npunishment that should be meted out for perceived rudeness. They also\ndemonstrated marked blindness for rudeness perpetuated in the name of\n\"political correctness\" (sometimes euphemized \"the common good\"). Nothing\nabout the culture of PC has changed since then, but what has changed is an\nincreased ability of some of its advocates to sequester themselves from the\ncritiques of it and the various subcultures it spawned (callout culture,\ncancel culture, social credit scores).\n\nRather than engaging inaccurate statements with ad hominem (see above), I\nthink it is more effective to engage them with accurate speech untainted by\npersonal emotion.\n\n~ James\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-30T21:15:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A Liberal or a Psycho gene?\n\nOp 30-1-2020 om 20:48 schreef Charles Gillingham:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "everyone is born with either a L or a P gene" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-30T21:20:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<5B836E64-C5C7-40D8-B4DB-6D562AE81B38@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This line sounds a bit like Ecclesiastes without the vanity part.\n\nOp 30-1-2020 om 19:56 schreef Ryan Dunn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a place for courtesy, and a place for plainspeak. Just like \nthere is a place for biting your tongue, and a place for tough love." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2020-01-30T21:49:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe politeness is a question of style and not necessarily correlated \nwith an attitude of fundamental human respect. Often it is a way to make \na distinction between the man of value and the worthless man. So it is \nnot an ethical category but a strategic and rhetorical one. 18th century \nFrance comes to mind: very polite and very corrupt. Rudeness was always \nconsidered a property of the lower orders lacking the refinement of the \nhigher ones. 19th century GB considered the proles genetically inferior \nlike colored people and racism evolved with biological thinking - as a \nform of ideology not science - and imperialism. So politeness may be not \nonly related to political civility but also to exclusion or worse.\n\n\nOp 30-1-2020 om 18:10 schreef Charles Gillingham:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, \nwhich is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to \ncompliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent \nminority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to \nbe rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when \nsomeone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n Rick, you got it in one.\n\n I'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm\n old enough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully\n on the side of \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly\n know, /politeness/.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n /Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!/\n /--/T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\n On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson\n > wrote:\n\n In my experience, people who complain about having to be\n “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things\n and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\n Rick\n\n *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\n ] *On Behalf Of *Gem Caccetta\n *Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n *To:* urth at lists.urth.net \n *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n \"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of\n being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n I know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many\n times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent\n re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\n Free says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?\n\n “Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment.\n “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them,\n usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you\n could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude\n toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to\n admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my\n guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n /The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that\n do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please\n exercise caution when handling emails from external sources.\n Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take\n immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for\n information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. /\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13E91216-E80B-4F68-8B18-4455327843AA@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-31T04:54:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<5B836E64-C5C7-40D8-B4DB-6D562AE81B38@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew I liked you from the first time you wrote on the list, Ryan!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 30/01/2020, ?s 18:56, Ryan Dunn escreveu:\n(sensible no-nonsense stuff)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-31T12:20:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I started, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Charles Gillingham\nSent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\n\"Idiot\" is an ableist slur...\n\nSome of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any given street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti in Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution isn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as dirty and violent as any other battle for survival.\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline.\n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham > wrote:\nControlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\nRick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side of \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, politeness.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Gem Caccetta\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003901d5d848$0e83a0d0$2b8ae270$@hwaet.com>", "from": { "name": "Eric Bourland", "address": "eb at hwaet.com" }, "date": "2020-01-31T15:06:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also got sad when I reached the end of Evil Guest, and the end of Cassie’s voice, b/c I knew I would never hear that voice again. Wolfe knew it too. You could tell, reading the end of EG, he got emotional. Who wouldn’t?\n\n \n\nOn the Gene Wolfe page on Facebook, someone invited people to read Pirate Freedom, for the purpose of convening later to discuss. Later meant about four weeks or so in the future, and that was a couple of weeks ago I guess. Anyway a bunch of folks hopped on, and I grabbed PF and read it in a couple of nights and it was as wistful and lovely (and violent and brutal) as ever. It’s been noted that Crisoforo’s voice seems at times too boyish — he is an educated Catholic priest, after all ! ? but his voice changes appropriately I think; he is a pirate boy in lost history; a troubled priest in the modern world. Different person / voice in different times. He is different when his Novia is near, and marauding with Capt Burt. Anyway my point, if I have one, and maybe I don’t, is, I think many times in his heart Wolfe wrote as a young person filled with wonder and a yearning for romantic adventure. And so we get wistful moments like the poignant endings of Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom. And Wizard Knight, and so on. Severian, even when old and care-worn, was still a boy in his heart. A boy with his dog, a little lost, slightly thoughtless, the way young people can be.\n\n \n\nThat’s more of a mere observation, and less of a point, but it was something I was thinking about as I scudded again through Pirate Freedom.\n\n \n\nEric\n\n \n\n \n\n*******\n\nEric Bourland\n\nhttps://www.hwaet.com/\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\nFrom: Urth On Behalf Of Norwood, Frederick Hudson\nSent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:20 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\n \n\nI strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I started, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.\n\n \n\nRick\n\n \n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Charles Gillingham\nSent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\n \n\n\"Idiot\" is an ableist slur...\n\n \n\nSome of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any given street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti in Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution isn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as dirty and violent as any other battle for survival.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\n \n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline. \n\n \n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\n \n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n \n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n \n\n \n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham > wrote:\n\nControlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want. \n\n \n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\nRick, you got it in one.\n\n \n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side of \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, politeness.\n\n \n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n \n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n \n\n \n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\n\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n \n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net ] On Behalf Of Gem Caccetta\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSubject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n \n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n \n\n \n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n \n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2020-01-31T15:45:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "<003901d5d848$0e83a0d0$2b8ae270$@hwaet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good observation.\n\nRici\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Eric Bourland\nSent: Friday, January 31, 2020 10:07 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List' \nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\nI also got sad when I reached the end of Evil Guest, and the end of Cassie’s voice, b/c I knew I would never hear that voice again. Wolfe knew it too. You could tell, reading the end of EG, he got emotional. Who wouldn’t?\n\nOn the Gene Wolfe page on Facebook, someone invited people to read Pirate Freedom, for the purpose of convening later to discuss. Later meant about four weeks or so in the future, and that was a couple of weeks ago I guess. Anyway a bunch of folks hopped on, and I grabbed PF and read it in a couple of nights and it was as wistful and lovely (and violent and brutal) as ever. It’s been noted that Crisoforo’s voice seems at times too boyish — he is an educated Catholic priest, after all ! ? but his voice changes appropriately I think; he is a pirate boy in lost history; a troubled priest in the modern world. Different person / voice in different times. He is different when his Novia is near, and marauding with Capt Burt. Anyway my point, if I have one, and maybe I don’t, is, I think many times in his heart Wolfe wrote as a young person filled with wonder and a yearning for romantic adventure. And so we get wistful moments like the poignant endings of Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom. And Wizard Knight, and so on. Severian, even when old and care-worn, was still a boy in his heart. A boy with his dog, a little lost, slightly thoughtless, the way young people can be.\n\nThat’s more of a mere observation, and less of a point, but it was something I was thinking about as I scudded again through Pirate Freedom.\n\nEric\n\n\n*******\nEric Bourland\nhttps://www.hwaet.com/\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Urth > On Behalf Of Norwood, Frederick Hudson\nSent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:20 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\nI strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I started, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Charles Gillingham\nSent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List >\nSubject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\n\"Idiot\" is an ableist slur...\n\nSome of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any given street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti in Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution isn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as dirty and violent as any other battle for survival.\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline.\n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham > wrote:\nControlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\nRick, you got it in one.\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side of \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, politeness.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nMaka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!\n--T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote:\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Gem Caccetta\nSent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n?Like them? Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\nThe [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2020-01-31T17:01:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed!\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:20 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nI strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I\nstarted, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.\n\n\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Charles\nGillingham\n*Sent:* Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women\n\n\n\n\"Idiot\" is an ableist slur...\n\n\n\nSome of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any\ngiven street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti\nin Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution\nisn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as\ndirty and violent as any other battle for survival.\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\n\nIf you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an\nidiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly\nlacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.\n\n\n\nPapa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that\ncivilization is in decline.\n\n\n\nNote also that \"civil\" and \"civilization\" are intimately related words.\n\n\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <\ncharlesgillingham at gmail.com> wrote:\n\nControlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which\nis controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or\nplacate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case).\nIt's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But\nsure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go\nahead be as nice as you want.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nRick, you got it in one.\n\n\n\nI'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old\nenough to remember when it was \"normal\". But I come down fully on the side\nof \"political correctness\", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.\n\n\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n\n*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*\n\n*--*T?a???ke Witk?\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\n\nIn my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically\ncorrect” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining\nabout not being allowed to be rude.\n\nRick\n\n\n\n*From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem\nCaccetta\n*Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women\n\n\n\nOn Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:\n\n\"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a\nchristian misogynist?\"\n\n\n\n\n\nI know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this\nlist. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free\ninteresting:\n\nFree says??You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes??\n\n“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really.\nI want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I\nwant them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”\n\n\n\nI wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women\nspeaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but\nhe didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.\n\n*The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT\noriginate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when\nhandling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and\nrequires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING\nfor information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. *\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }