# from the Centipede Press weekly newsletter *The Urth list — 16 messages, 9 voices, 06 Dec 2020* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Fernando Gouvea *06 Dec 2020, 13:54* Centipede Press asks: > Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the “Gene > Wolfe” people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions > of the six-book /The Book of the New Sun/ series. One nice > thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France > who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the > artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the The > Book of the New Sun’s world. If you’re the Gene Wolfe fan who > obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of the > maps thus far created (there’s one on Wikipedia, and one > created by Gurps, too, among several others)???your help is > requested with this project. All I need to know is what is > (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most > accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and > make it into something amazing. If you’re that person, who’s > really really /really/ into this, and who knows the subject > backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! ``` ============================================================= Fernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea Carter Professor of Mathematics Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics Colby College 5836 Mayflower Hill Waterville, ME 04901 The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. -- Frederica Mathewes-Green ``` --- ### Ab de Vos *06 Dec 2020, 15:16 · in reply to Fernando Gouvea* The list is quite comatose. Op 6-12-2020 om 14:54 schreef Fernando Gouvea: > Centipede Press asks: >> Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the “Gene >> Wolfe” people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions >> of the six-book /The Book of the New Sun/ series. One nice >> thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France >> who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the >> artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the >> The Book of the New Sun’s world. If you’re the Gene Wolfe fan >> who obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of >> the maps thus far created (there’s one on Wikipedia, and one >> created by Gurps, too, among several others)???your help is >> requested with this project. All I need to know is what is >> (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most >> accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and >> make it into something amazing. If you’re that person, who’s >> really really /really/ into this, and who knows the subject >> backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! > -- > ============================================================= > Fernando Q. Gouveahttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea > Carter Professor of Mathematics > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics > Colby College > 5836 Mayflower Hill > Waterville, ME 04901 > > The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. > -- Frederica Mathewes-Green > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Gerry Quinn *06 Dec 2020, 16:17 · in reply to Fernando Gouvea* > On 06/12/2020 13:54, Fernando Gouvea wrote: > > Centipede Press asks: >> Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the “Gene >> Wolfe” people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions >> of the six-book /The Book of the New Sun/ series. One nice >> thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France >> who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the >> artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the >> The Book of the New Sun’s world. If you’re the Gene Wolfe fan >> who obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of >> the maps thus far created (there’s one on Wikipedia, and one >> created by Gurps, too, among several others)???your help is >> requested with this project. All I need to know is what is >> (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most >> accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and >> make it into something amazing. If you’re that person, who’s >> really really /really/ into this, and who knows the subject >> backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! Interesting - though I can't help suspecting that Wolfe would be disappointed if he let enough details slip to make any sort of definitive map possible! The popular hypothesis, as I'm sure you know, is that the Commonwealth is based in South America and Gyoll is the Amazon. Though this rather begs the question of what happened to Europe, Asia and Africa, as no other continents are mentioned - unless one counts those that will supposedly rise from the sea in the wake of the New Sun's devastation. - Gerry Quinn --- ### António Pedro Marques *06 Dec 2020, 20:56 · in reply to Fernando Gouvea* In a Gene Wolfe book, either the map is awfully important and nobody has studied it well enough, and presenting a half-accurate version is counterproductive, or the map is a mere detail and worrying too much about it is counterproductive. But if the Comminwealth is supposed to be South America and Nessus is Buenos Aires, then certainly the Gyoll cannot be the Amazonas. > No dia 06/12/2020, ?s 13:54, Fernando Gouvea escreveu: > > > Centipede Press asks: >> Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the “Gene Wolfe” people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions of the six-book The Book of the New Sun series. One nice thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the The Book of the New Sun’s world. If you’re the Gene Wolfe fan who obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of the maps thus far created (there’s one on Wikipedia, and one created by Gurps, too, among several others) — your help is requested with this project. All I need to know is what is (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and make it into something amazing. If you’re that person, who’s really really really into this, and who knows the subject backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! > -- > ============================================================= > Fernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea > Carter Professor of Mathematics > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics > Colby College > 5836 Mayflower Hill > Waterville, ME 04901 > > The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. > -- Frederica Mathewes-Green > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Norwood, Frederick Hudson *06 Dec 2020, 21:05 · in reply to Fernando Gouvea* The most important thing is to have six cardinal points of the compass, not four. Second, to have south be up. I'm not certain that the people from earth carry this over to the new sun, but it would indicate an awareness that, in this series, Wolfe deliberately did everything different from the way we do things. Best, Rick Norwood --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *06 Dec 2020, 21:27 · in reply to Norwood, Frederick Hudson* Wait, what? *SIX* book series? It's four, with an optional fifth, but what's the sixth? Stay healthy, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *"Truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it. Ignorance may deride it. Malice may distort it. But there it is." -- *Winston Churchill > On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 1:05 PM Norwood, Frederick Hudson < > NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote: > The most important thing is to have six cardinal points of the compass, > not four. Second, to have south be up. I'm not certain that the people from > earth carry this over to the new sun, but it would indicate an awareness > that, in this series, Wolfe deliberately did everything different from the > way we do things. > > Best, > Rick Norwood > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Urth on behalf of Fernando Gouvea < > fqgouvea at colby.edu> > *Sent:* Sunday, December 6, 2020 8:54 AM > *To:* The Urth Mailing List > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) from the Centipede Press weekly newsletter > > > Centipede Press > asks: > > Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the “Gene Wolfe” people > out there? As you know, I am doing new editions of the six-book *The Book > of the New Sun* series. One nice thing to have would be new maps. I found > an artist in France who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but > the artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the The Book of > the New Sun’s world. If you’re the Gene Wolfe fan who obsesses over this, > and has rigorously analyzed all of the maps thus far created (there’s one > on Wikipedia, and one created by Gurps, too, among several others) — your > help is requested with this project. All I need to know is what is (are) > considered the most regarded and considered the most accurate map(s). My > map maker can extrapolate from there and make it into something amazing. If > you’re that person, who’s really really *really* into this, and who knows > the subject backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! > > > -- > ============================================================= > Fernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea > Carter Professor of Mathematics > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics > Colby College > 5836 Mayflower Hill > Waterville, ME 04901 > > The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. > -- Frederica Mathewes-Green > > > *The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT > originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when > handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and > requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING > for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. * > > _______________________________________________ --- ### ori kowarsky *06 Dec 2020, 21:32 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* I think Otter. Get Outlook for Android Wait, what? SIX book series? It's four, with an optional fifth, but what's the sixth? Stay healthy, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes "Truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it. Ignorance may deride it. Malice may distort it. But there it is." -- Winston Churchill On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 1:05 PM Norwood, Frederick Hudson > wrote: The most important thing is to have six cardinal points of the compass, not four. Second, to have south be up. I'm not certain that the people from earth carry this over to the new sun, but it would indicate an awareness that, in this series, Wolfe deliberately did everything different from the way we do things. Best, Rick Norwood Centipede Press asks: Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the “Gene Wolfe” people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions of the six-book The Book of the New Sun series. One nice thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the The Book of the New Sun’s world. If you’re the Gene Wolfe fan who obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of the maps thus far created (there’s one on Wikipedia, and one created by Gurps, too, among several others) — your help is requested with this project. All I need to know is what is (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and make it into something amazing. If you’re that person, who’s really really really into this, and who knows the subject backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! ``` ============================================================= Fernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea Carter Professor of Mathematics Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics Colby College 5836 Mayflower Hill Waterville, ME 04901 The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. -- Frederica Mathewes-Green The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Dec 2020, 16:43 · in reply to Norwood, Frederick Hudson* Can you explain more about the 6 compass points? Sounds like it would lend itself to a hexmap, which I have not seen done. There is a theory about how far Wolfe took the reversal thing. I am not sure I can describe it verbally, but it involves moving Bueno Aires to the other side of the Andes by flipping the globe. It seems to work. > On 12/6/2020 4:05 PM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson wrote: > The most important thing is to have six cardinal points of the > compass, not four. Second, to have south be up. I'm not certain that > the people from earth carry this over to the new sun, but it would > indicate an awareness that, in this series, Wolfe deliberately did > everything different from the way we do things. > > Best, > Rick Norwood > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Urth on behalf of Fernando > Gouvea > *Sent:* Sunday, December 6, 2020 8:54 AM > *To:* The Urth Mailing List > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) from the Centipede Press weekly newsletter > > Centipede Press > asks: >> Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the ???Gene >> Wolfe??? people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions >> of the six-book /The Book of the New Sun/ series. One nice >> thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France >> who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the >> artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the >> The Book of the New Sun???s world. If you???re the Gene Wolfe fan >> who obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of >> the maps thus far created (there???s one on Wikipedia, and one >> created by Gurps, too, among several others)?????????your help is >> requested with this project. All I need to know is what is >> (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most >> accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and >> make it into something amazing. If you???re that person, who???s >> really really /really/ into this, and who knows the subject >> backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! > -- > ============================================================= > Fernando Q. Gouveahttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea > Carter Professor of Mathematics > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics > Colby College > 5836 Mayflower Hill > Waterville, ME 04901 > > The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. > -- Frederica Mathewes-Green > > /The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT > originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when > handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited > and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is > PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. / > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Norwood, Frederick Hudson *07 Dec 2020, 22:13 · in reply to David Stockhoff* In Urth of the New Son, Wolfe did almost everything differently from what the reading expected, including a compass having six points and south being at the south. Another example is that, in the end end the first book, instead of reaching their destination, the characters are just leaving the city they started in. Another is that, at one point, we find out that the man is the master and the master is the man. It is one of the book's charms. I do not know if this carries over into Book of the Long Sun and Book of the Short Sun. Also Book of the New Sun is a trilogy in four (or five) volumes. Best, Rick ________________________________ From: Urth on behalf of David Stockhoff Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 11:43 AM To: urth at lists.urth.net Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] from the Centipede Press weekly newsletter Can you explain more about the 6 compass points? Sounds like it would lend itself to a hexmap, which I have not seen done. There is a theory about how far Wolfe took the reversal thing. I am not sure I can describe it verbally, but it involves moving Bueno Aires to the other side of the Andes by flipping the globe. It seems to work. On 12/6/2020 4:05 PM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson wrote: The most important thing is to have six cardinal points of the compass, not four. Second, to have south be up. I'm not certain that the people from earth carry this over to the new sun, but it would indicate an awareness that, in this series, Wolfe deliberately did everything different from the way we do things. Best, Rick Norwood Centipede Press asks: Okay. I might be sorry I asked this, but who are the ???Gene Wolfe??? people out there? As you know, I am doing new editions of the six-book The Book of the New Sun series. One nice thing to have would be new maps. I found an artist in France who does this sort of work with flair and panache, but the artist is looking for help with the basic structure of the The Book of the New Sun???s world. If you???re the Gene Wolfe fan who obsesses over this, and has rigorously analyzed all of the maps thus far created (there???s one on Wikipedia, and one created by Gurps, too, among several others)?????????your help is requested with this project. All I need to know is what is (are) considered the most regarded and considered the most accurate map(s). My map maker can extrapolate from there and make it into something amazing. If you???re that person, who???s really really really into this, and who knows the subject backwards and forwards, please give me a shout! ``` ============================================================= Fernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea Carter Professor of Mathematics Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics Colby College 5836 Mayflower Hill Waterville, ME 04901 The rule is: any movie with a dad is a movie with a bad dad. -- Frederica Mathewes-Green The [EXTERNAL] tag in the subject line identifies emails that do NOT originate from an ETSU person or service. Please exercise caution when handling emails from external sources. Any email that is unsolicited and requires you to take immediate action, appears to be forged or is PHISHING for information can be verified by emailing the ITS Help Desk. ``` --- ### Mark Millman *07 Dec 2020, 22:35 · in reply to Norwood, Frederick Hudson* Folks, > On Sunday 6 December 2020, Rick Norwood wrote: > The most important thing is to have six cardinal > points of the compass, not four. Second, to have > south be up. And on Monday 7 December 2020, David Stockhoff asked: > Can you explain more about the 6 compass > points? Sounds like it would lend itself to a hex- > map, which I have not seen done. To which Rick replied: > In Urth of the New Son, Wolfe did almost every- > thing differently from what the reading expected, > including a compass having six points and south > being at the south. . . . I imagine this is a typo for "top". You're probably aware that maps with south at the top are the classical Chinese standard, which was influential in east Asia (and remember that there's evidence that Korea may have been a dominant power on Urth for a while, including having launched Jonas' ship). For that matter, medieval European maps often put east at the top, taking their orientation from Jerusalem and Eden. But my impression of the six-pointed compass is that it's a spherical compass that indicates up and down as well as south, north, west, and east. Six coplanar cardinal points seems too arbitrary to appeal to Wolfe's engineering brain. Best, Mark Millman --- ### David Stockhoff *07 Dec 2020, 22:40 · in reply to Mark Millman* Thanks. I was trying to find out where in the text a 6-point compass was mentioned. I agree that if you have six you could just as well have seven---but 8 is pretty much universal for obvious reasons. > On 12/7/2020 5:35 PM, Mark Millman wrote: > Folks, > > On Sunday 6 December 2020, Rick Norwood wrote: >> The most important thing is to have six cardinal >> points of the compass, not four. Second, to have >> south be up. > And on Monday 7 December 2020, David Stockhoff asked: >> Can you explain more about the 6 compass >> points? Sounds like it would lend itself to a hex- >> map, which I have not seen done. > To which Rick replied: >> In Urth of the New Son, Wolfe did almost every- >> thing differently from what the reading expected, >> including a compass having six points and south >> being at the south. . . . > I imagine this is a typo for "top". You're probably aware that maps > with south at the top are the classical Chinese standard, which was > influential in east Asia (and remember that there's evidence that > Korea may have been a dominant power on Urth for a while, including > having launched Jonas' ship). For that matter, medieval European maps > often put east at the top, taking their orientation from Jerusalem and > Eden. > > But my impression of the six-pointed compass is that it's a spherical > compass that indicates up and down as well as south, north, west, and > east. Six coplanar cardinal points seems too arbitrary to appeal to > Wolfe's engineering brain. > > Best, > > Mark Millman > _______________________________________________ --- ### Mark Millman *07 Dec 2020, 23:15 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Dear David, > On Monday 7 December 2020, you wrote: > Thanks. I was trying to find out where in > the text a 6-point compass was mention- > ed. I have a very vague impression that Severian is given it on the Ship Tzadkiel to help him find his way around, but I haven't had time yet to check and could well be mistaken. > I agree that if you have six you could > just as well have seven---but 8 is pretty > much universal for obvious reasons. I imagine that you mean eight on the flat here, rather than eight in space. Is that right, or am I confused? Best, Mark --- ### Fernando Gouvea *08 Dec 2020, 00:20 · in reply to Norwood, Frederick Hudson* A flipped globe is certainly possible, given the map in /Plan[e]t Engineering. /It looks very much like a mirror-image South America. It didn't occur to me to see if it might be? a plausible "south-up" South America, but it doesn't seem so, especially since Wolfe's notation says "northwest area of the Commonwealth". Is anyone copying the folks at Centipede Press on this discussion? Fernando > On 12/7/2020 5:13 PM, Davud Stickhoff wrote: > There is a theory about how far Wolfe took the reversal thing. I am > not sure I can describe it verbally, but it involves moving Bueno > Aires to the other side of the Andes by flipping the globe. It seems > to work. ``` ============================================================= Fernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea Carter Professor of Mathematics Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics Colby College 5836 Mayflower Hill Waterville, ME 04901 This sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't. -- Douglas Hofstadter ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *08 Dec 2020, 00:49 · in reply to Mark Millman* Yes, I'm referring to the eight winds of the standard windrose. > On 12/7/2020 6:15 PM, Mark Millman wrote: > Dear David, > > On Monday 7 December 2020, you wrote: >> Thanks. I was trying to find out where in >> the text a 6-point compass was mention- >> ed. > I have a very vague impression that Severian is given it on the Ship > Tzadkiel to help him find his way around, but I haven't had time yet > to check and could well be mistaken. >> I agree that if you have six you could >> just as well have seven---but 8 is pretty >> much universal for obvious reasons. > I imagine that you mean eight on the flat here, rather than eight in > space. Is that right, or am I confused? > > Best, > > Mark > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *08 Dec 2020, 00:53 · in reply to Fernando Gouvea* Well, east is east and west is west. Everything else can change. The map itself is drawn north-up, but northwest is still northwest. > On 12/7/2020 7:20 PM, Fernando Gouvea wrote: > > A flipped globe is certainly possible, given the map in /Plan[e]t > Engineering. /It looks very much like a mirror-image South America. It > didn't occur to me to see if it might be??? a plausible "south-up" South > America, but it doesn't seem so, especially since Wolfe's notation > says "northwest area of the Commonwealth". > > Is anyone copying the folks at Centipede Press on this discussion? > > Fernando > > On 12/7/2020 5:13 PM, Davud Stockhoff wrote: >> There is a theory about how far Wolfe took the reversal thing. I am >> not sure I can describe it verbally, but it involves moving Bueno >> Aires to the other side of the Andes by flipping the globe. It seems >> to work. > -- > ============================================================= > Fernando Q. Gouveahttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea > Carter Professor of Mathematics > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics > Colby College > 5836 Mayflower Hill > Waterville, ME 04901 > > This sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't. > -- Douglas Hofstadter > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Mark Millman *08 Dec 2020, 04:46 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Dear David, > On Monday 7 December 2020, you wrote: > Yes, I'm referring to the eight winds of > the standard windrose. Thank you for the clarification. I wanted to confirm that you weren't thinking of a three-dimensional quadrant system, which also could be conceived to have eight cardinals. Best, Mark ---