{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/69", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 69, "subject": "Grist!", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-06-25T16:51:00+00:00", "last": "1997-06-25T20:26:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-06-25T16:51:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Grist!", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #5927412 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#\n\nNutria,\n\nWow, that =is= a lot of grist there!\n\nRe: Witches' Keep as perverse convent of nuns. Possible, of course,\nbut since they are called witches right up front I tend more to think\nof the witches of Endor being formally incorporated into the physical\nand political structure of Solomon's temple/kingdom complex. (\"I'm\ngetting tired of going all the way over to Endor when I have a tough\nquestion--let's just rewrite the laws and invite them in.\")\n\n(I am =still= delighted that witches and torturers are paired at the\nOld Citadel. This is such a fine paradox. Sure, on the surface it\nmight seem as easy as anything on Gor. But both groups were hated in\nearlier times; witches were outside the law and torturers were inside\nthe law; yet witches (ancient and modern) have risen to \"victims\"\n(i.e., secular saints ) innocent or pagan, while torturers (ancient)\nhave sunken deeper into villainy; torturers worked on alleged witches\n. . . it is like that line from \"Ghostbusters\" talking about disaster\nof Biblical proportions, ending with \"Cats and dogs, living together!\")\n\nRe: Bear Tower as perverse Franciscians. Hey, I =like= that! We\ndon't know who the beast handlers' patron saint is, fwiw.\n\nRe: St. Catherine playing an important role in any of the monastic\norders of Earth. Good question. I don't know the answer. Her\nrelics were translated to Mount Sinai by some monks who were later\nerroneously referred to as \"angels\"; so there's a first group right\noff the bat.\n\n(Don't forget the pelerine connection. Catherine, mother of\nSeverian, was a pelerine who fell . . . uh oh, I'm suddenly beset by\nlayered visions--I'll ignore the Gnostic Sophia to focus on the\npelerines as possibly being, in addition to everything else, a social\ndevice for exultants to vent off khaibits no longer needed. That is\nto say, we wonder what happens to khaibits when their originals\ndie--\"get thee to a nunnery\" sounds good. Whoops, unless they've been\npillow girls for the Autarch . . . yeah, well, and how many of those\ngirls are actually pillowed, anyway, especially in the reign\nimmediately before Severian's? In addition, all exultants need khaibits,\nbut not all exultants are bound to send hostages to House Absolute, so\nthere's plenty of loose khaibits around. Which brings us 'round to\nthose cloneish soldiers at the front--the solution for all those\nreleased-from-estate male khaibits, perhaps?)\n\nI really like that Fish stuff, predictably. Makes little sparks in\nmy brain. Just to give you a hard time , I'll quibble weakly that\nInire's Fish is being drawn not from Nothing (Ain Soph, et al.) but\nfrom Yesod (\"hyperspace\" for the fundamentalist sfans). This is a very\nweak one, easily parried. You should take that little fish appetizer\nand work it up into a main course essay!\n\nRe: \"Gene Wolfe at the Lake of Birds\" (aka \"essay on the Garden of\nEndless Sleeep\"). I'm pleased that you enjoyed it! To answer your\nquestion, yes, I do think that there is a strong bit of Eden there,\nbut when you make the logical extension that the avern is the Tree of\nEden, I'm both surprised (that I didn't think of that before) and a\nbit resistant (perhaps due to being surprised?): it is hard for me to\nsee the \"Good\" or even \"Neutral\" in the avern--it is a deadly, deadly\nthing. In this light I would tend to think of it more as the \"Tree of\nLife and Death\" or \"Tree of (Knowledge of) Death,\" or by following\nthis reasoning a little further, the Cross upon which Jesus was raised.\n\nTrue, in credit to your theory, after they \"know\" the plant they\nleave the garden (visions of curator Michael muttering as he locks\nthe gate behind them); but then I get some points a few chapters\nlater as avern provides Severian with his first public\nself-resurrection opportunity.\n\nWe're =both= right--Yay!\n\nBut we're neither of us \"Wright\"--and I'll agree with you, he is on\nto something.\n\nSo while three of us are right, one is still undeniably Wright and\nthe others are not.\n\n(Dreaming of the day when we will have a Wolfe scholar named Wong . .\n. )\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rory McIntyre", "address": "76450.2177 at compuserve.com" }, "date": "1997-06-25T20:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Grist!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael--\n\nAs this is my first posting to the list, I'll keep it short & sweet. Also,\nplease forgive any mistakes.\n\nI wanted to add a little to your point regarding the pelerines being \"...a\nsocial device for exultants\nto vent off khaibits no longer needed. That is to say, we wonder what happens\nto khaibits when \ntheir originals die--'get thee to a nunnery' sounds good.\" Specifically, I\nwanted to point out that, in \na discussion of Hamlet I had in a class many years ago, our professor pointed\nout that \"nunnery\" \nwas a 17th century slang term for a whorehouse, makes Hamlet's line to Ophelia\nmore of an insult\nthan mere condescension. Back to the point at hand, it ties then into the\npelerines and the House \nAzure.\n\nRory " } ] } ] }