{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/72", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 72, "subject": "A note from the Antichrist", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-06-25T19:33:10+00:00", "last": "1997-06-30T17:11:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1997-06-25T19:33:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A note from the Antichrist", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A quote from Peter Cash, aka le lapin riche:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "people seem to be\ntoo quick to find Christian associations for symbols in Wolfe's work,\njust because they know he's Catholic. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Words that ought to be tattooed across the flea-bitten back of a certain\nrat-fink.\n\nAnd what Peter has to say about paganism, if hasty, makes sense. To portray\nWolfe as inveighing against idolatry is to portray him as a maker of\ntracts, not novels. And it should be evident that his knowledge of and love\nof the (idolatrous) Classical world is not superficial; I think he would\nobject to a rat's calling it simplistic and destructive. But:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Slimey Alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ratty,\n\nI define a Christian as someone who believes that he or she will attain\neternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Severian has never heard of\nJesus\nChrist, and he himself has brought salvation (through destruction) to\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tWhoa! Agia refers to the Theoanthropos in 1:21. Also, in that chapter\nthe\nwoman missionary (Marie - Mary) is reading from the Urth equivalent of\nDeuteronomy 34. (1:21 = Shadow, ch. 21)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia's casual reference to the Theoanthropos (the only such reference in\nthe quintet) is equivalent to one of us saying \"Jumping Jehosaphat!\"\nBzzzzt! And yes, indeed, Marie is reading from Deut. 34, but Marie is an\nexhibit, and Severian examines her as we would examine a tableau vivant at\nthe Museum of Natural History. There isn't the slightest indication\nanywhere that one ancient religion of the early 20th century means more to\nhim than that of Apu-Punchau.\n\nThere's a great deal more to your post (thanks, by the way, for moving it\nover here), but it's based on *such* flimsy evidence. I have to admire your\ndedication to your calling, but it certainly gets loopy at times. (One of\nthe oddest things in your interview with Wolfe was the two of you deploring\nthe non-Christian use of kittens as baseballs. If you had been Buddhists or\nJainists, you might correctly have congratulated yourself on your religious\nabhorrence of such behavior. But Christianity takes no such tack; even your\nown reformed branch had a mighty poor record when it came to destitute old\nwomen of the 16th through the 19th centuries.) \n \n-slimeball-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-06-30T17:11:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A note from the Antichrist", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:33 PM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote:\n\n[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works]\n\nA quote from Peter Cash, aka le lapin riche:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "people seem to be\ntoo quick to find Christian associations for symbols in Wolfe's work,\njust because they know he's Catholic. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Words that ought to be tattooed across the flea-bitten back of a certain\nrat-fink.\n\nAnd what Peter has to say about paganism, if hasty, makes sense. To portray\nWolfe as inveighing against idolatry is to portray him as a maker of\ntracts, not novels. And it should be evident that his knowledge of and love\nof the (idolatrous) Classical world is not superficial; I think he would\nobject to a rat's calling it simplistic and destructive. But:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tGimmeabreak! Was Shakespeare writing tracts instead of plays, because he\nhad messages for the monarchs? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Slimey Alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ratty,\n\nI define a Christian as someone who believes that he or she will attain\neternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Severian has never heard of\nJesus\nChrist, and he himself has brought salvation (through destruction) to\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tWhoa! Agia refers to the Theoanthropos in 1:21. Also, in that chapter\nthe\nwoman missionary (Marie - Mary) is reading from the Urth equivalent of\nDeuteronomy 34. (1:21 = Shadow, ch. 21)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia's casual reference to the Theoanthropos (the only such reference in\nthe quintet) is equivalent to one of us saying \"Jumping Jehosaphat!\"\nBzzzzt! And yes, indeed, Marie is reading from Deut. 34, but Marie is an\nexhibit, and Severian examines her as we would examine a tableau vivant at\nthe Museum of Natural History. There isn't the slightest indication\nanywhere that one ancient religion of the early 20th century means more to\nhim than that of Apu-Punchau." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, there are two questions here: 1. Is there a \"Jesus Christ\" in the\nUrth/Whorl universe; and 2. Is Severian a self-conscious follower of that\nperson? The answer to \"1\" is what I was dealing with. Some wrote that Jesus\nis unknown in the Urth/Whorl universe. I pointed out that he clearly is,\nbecause of \"Theoanthropos.\" The more obvious line of evidence is the Silk\nquartet, where references to the crucifixion, to the sign of the cross,\netc. are more in evidence.\n\tAs for question 2., I don't know. Wolfe says that Severian is not what he\nregards as a Christ figure (allegory of Christ, I take it), but a Christian\nfigure (allegory of a Christian, I take it). I don't understand why anyone\nwants to insist that Wolfe intends something he has stated clearly that he\ndoes not intend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a great deal more to your post (thanks, by the way, for moving it\nover here), but it's based on *such* flimsy evidence. I have to admire your\ndedication to your calling, but it certainly gets loopy at times. (One of\nthe oddest things in your interview with Wolfe was the two of you deploring\nthe non-Christian use of kittens as baseballs. If you had been Buddhists or\nJainists, you might correctly have congratulated yourself on your religious\nabhorrence of such behavior. But Christianity takes no such tack; even your\nown reformed branch had a mighty poor record when it came to destitute old\nwomen of the 16th through the 19th centuries.) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, that's (a) an irrelevant ad hominem argument, and (b) at least as\nfalse as true.\n\tBTW, are you the authoress of a book on hell that I happen to have on my\nshelf?\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }