Subject: (urth) A note from the Antichrist

From: Alice Turner <al at interport.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:33:10 +0000

[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works]

A quote from Peter Cash, aka le lapin riche:

> people seem to be
> too quick to find Christian associations for symbols in Wolfe's work,
> just because they know he's Catholic. 

Words that ought to be tattooed across the flea-bitten back of a certain
rat-fink.

And what Peter has to say about paganism, if hasty, makes sense. To portray
Wolfe as inveighing against idolatry is to portray him as a maker of
tracts, not novels. And it should be evident that his knowledge of and love
of the (idolatrous) Classical world is not superficial; I think he would
object to a rat's calling it simplistic and destructive. But:

> 
> Slimey Alga wrote:
> 
> >Ratty,
> >
> >I define a Christian as someone who believes that he or she will attain
> >eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Severian has never heard of
Jesus
> >Christ, and he himself has brought salvation (through destruction) to
Urth.
> 
> 	Whoa! Agia refers to the Theoanthropos in 1:21. Also, in that chapter
the
> woman missionary (Marie - Mary) is reading from the Urth equivalent of
> Deuteronomy 34. (1:21 = Shadow, ch. 21).

Agia's casual reference to the Theoanthropos (the only such reference in
the quintet) is equivalent to one of us saying "Jumping Jehosaphat!"
Bzzzzt! And yes, indeed, Marie is reading from Deut. 34, but Marie is an
exhibit, and Severian examines her as we would examine a tableau vivant at
the Museum of Natural History. There isn't the slightest indication
anywhere that one ancient religion of the early 20th century means more to
him than that of Apu-Punchau.

There's a great deal more to your post (thanks, by the way, for moving it
over here), but it's based on *such* flimsy evidence. I have to admire your
dedication to your calling, but it certainly gets loopy at times. (One of
the oddest things in your interview with Wolfe was the two of you deploring
the non-Christian use of kittens as baseballs. If you had been Buddhists or
Jainists, you might correctly have congratulated yourself on your religious
abhorrence of such behavior. But Christianity takes no such tack; even your
own reformed branch had a mighty poor record when it came to destitute old
women of the 16th through the 19th centuries.)  
 
-slimeball-

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:11:40 +0000

>object to a rat's calling it simplistic and destructive. But:

	Gimmeabreak! Was Shakespeare writing tracts instead of plays, because he
had messages for the monarchs? 

>him than that of Apu-Punchau.

	Well, there are two questions here: 1. Is there a "Jesus Christ" in the
Urth/Whorl universe; and 2. Is Severian a self-conscious follower of that
person? The answer to "1" is what I was dealing with. Some wrote that Jesus
is unknown in the Urth/Whorl universe. I pointed out that he clearly is,
because of "Theoanthropos." The more obvious line of evidence is the Silk
quartet, where references to the crucifixion, to the sign of the cross,
etc. are more in evidence.
	As for question 2., I don't know. Wolfe says that Severian is not what he
regards as a Christ figure (allegory of Christ, I take it), but a Christian
figure (allegory of a Christian, I take it). I don't understand why anyone
wants to insist that Wolfe intends something he has stated clearly that he
does not intend.

>women of the 16th through the 19th centuries.)  

	Well, that's (a) an irrelevant ad hominem argument, and (b) at least as
false as true.
	BTW, are you the authoress of a book on hell that I happen to have on my
shelf?

Nutria