{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/723",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 723,
    "subject": "Liev's Postpostulate",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "1998-06-02T17:25:02+00:00",
    "last": "1998-06-03T11:05:37+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0012-0064@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "adam louis stephanides",
        "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu"
      },
      "date": "1998-06-02T17:25:02+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Liev's Postpostulate",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 Tony Ellis wrote:\nThis explains why abos and humans, such as VRT's mother and RT, can\ninterbreed. It also gives us Liev's Postpostulate: it's not that the\nFree People are colonists gone native, but that they interbred with (or\npossibly replaced) the original French settlers."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "But this is a less extreme version of Veil's Hypothesis, not a reversal of\nit, which \"Liev\" implies.  And it doesn't explain the bit about our\nthoughts influencing reality.\n\n--Adam"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0012-0072@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Tony Ellis",
        "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk"
      },
      "date": "1998-06-03T11:05:37+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: Liev's Postpostulate",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0012-0064@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Adam Louis Stephanides wrote:\nThis explains why abos and humans, such as VRT's mother and RT, can\ninterbreed. It also gives us Liev's Postpostulate: it's not that the\nFree People are colonists gone native, but that they interbred with (or\npossibly replaced) the original French settlers."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "But this is a less extreme version of Veil's Hypothesis, not a reversal of\nit, which \"Liev\" implies.  And it doesn't explain the bit about our\nthoughts influencing reality."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Veil's Hypothesis is already a reversal - of the accepted view that the\nnative Annese were wiped out during the first days of colonization. If\nLiev's Postpostulate was a simple reversal of Veil's Hypothesis we would\nbe back where we started, with the all too mundane story of a native\npeople destroyed by invading colonials, as in Tasmania and the Americas.\n\nWolfe is very fond of ideas that reverse accepted ways of thinking (\"we\nbelieve that we invent our symbols. The truth is that they invent us.\"),\nand I think for that reason too that Liev's Postpostulate would be a\nvariance on Veil's, rather than gainsaying it.\n\nAs for our thoughts influencing reality, surely what VRT is saying here\nis what Wolfe says again and again in his books, that we are the victims\nof our limited perceptions of the world. Mrs Blount and her fellow\npostwar colonists \"think\" the Annese are French war victims, so 80-odd\nyears on that has become \"reality\". As Marsch says, there is a parallel\nwith Earth's \"Good People\", or fairies: everybody \"knows\" that\npaleolithic man died out hundreds of thousands of years ago, and so that\nbecomes \"reality\". The compelling evidence - lots of it - that they\nsurvived until very recently is reclassified as \"folklore\" so that no\none has to worry about it anymore. If you've decided that the abos are\nall dead, you're never going to see any."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}