{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/739", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 739, "subject": "Trenchard, Abo: Part II", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-06-04T22:37:29+00:00", "last": "1998-06-05T15:24:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1998-06-04T22:37:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Trenchard, Abo: Part II", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lawyer Dupont, for the defense, your honor. According to state prosecutor, \nthe Honorable Tony Ellis:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You asterisk several lines in VRT's rowboat memory, but not this one:\n\"My mother...had been buttoned into her yellow dress by him.\" Buttoned\nin because the Annese can't handle buttons any more than they can handle\ntools or writing. How can Trenchard do that if he's Annese too?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You ever see any old style frontier dress buttons or even a pea coat?\nThey're not at all like our current miniatures and some are quite large.\nDitto for the button holes (or they might involve hooking, the same way a\nnet is woven). Possibly the boat incident incurred while he was still in\npossession of his human digits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For someone who grew up in a marsh, doesn't RT read rather well? Yet his\nwife remained illiterate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RT can read rather well? Did I miss something? The so-called library\nmentioned in the narrative is clearly stated to be Victor's. Victor also\nhas the intelligence to go on and impersonate a doctoral candidate, so\nobviously he got his wiley smarts from someone. Why not Pop?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If RT is an abo, why does his son have to keep correcting all his bogus\ninformation about the abos? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RT's life and continued well-being may depend on his never being taken\nseriously. It's part of his passing schtick. Witness what the community\nthinks of him. Recall especially RT's story about Dupont and the farm\ncontestment. If RT appears too authentic, he could suffer the same load of\nbuckshot as the abo in Dupont's narrative. The more authentic on the other\nhand Victor appears, the more likely Marsch will hire them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We're shown that VRT lacks the manual dexterity to have made the fake\nflint tools RT shows Marsch. That leaves RT. How did he make them, if\nhe's an abo too?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Victor comes right out and says such tools are made with one's teeth (p,\n143). Marsch later adds such tools require little manual dexterity to chink\nout." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're also saying that the Running\nBlood test took place a mere 15 years ago, but Dr Hagsmith tells us this\nis a test that the French applied, which puts it about a century back.\nHe even says that the French were \"supposed\" to have applied it -\nwouldn't he be a little more certain if it had only happened 15 years\nago?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The 15 year figure is given on p. 147 by Mr. D. If you chose to contest\nthis, what does the 15 years refer to? Especially since the only other\nseemingly close dates in the narrative concern Victor's age. It's not\nchaff; it's a clue.\n\nThe French are also not going to go around whispering, hey, we lynched a\nfew abos last night, don't put too much starch in my white sheets.\nHagsmith, remember, is English: the French are his sworn enemy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If RT was a shape-shifting abo, why would grafted human limbs even\naccept his alien tissue in the first place? And if they did, why would\nthis give him the ability to use tools, when the organ that has\n\"atrophied\" is in his brain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. The abo tissue would reject the human transplant, but reproduction\nbetween human and abo is possible? Because this is what you're saying.\nYou're also not reading Dollo correctly with your atrophied-brain\nsupposition. Believe me, I have the bona fides in biology and can cite you\nthe appropriate scientific literature if you like. (Evolutionary theory is\na discipline of mine, but I refuse to bring up Scopes.)\n\nAlso reread Hagsmith's tale. Specifically note how the abo half of the\nsecond cattle-drover's wife would steal something, but the human half would\nput it back. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any event, there is no evidence that the Free People can grow new\nlimbs. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a minute. You can change your shape into a dead tree or a carabou,\nwith the attendant wild morphing of form, but you can't recast the distal\nportion of a limb into the form of a hand or retransmogrify yourself\naltogether? If antlers, why not hands? If tree branches, why not fingers?\nAlso keep in mind there are several different varieties of abo--check out\nmy abo taxonomy post for details. Some are wildly pleiomorphic, others less\nso.\n\nAt any rate, my honorable opponent, how about some questions for you then?\n\nWhat do you make of the name End of Days, when Annese names are all pretty\nmuch descriptive? Simple abo calendar reform? All of the other good names\nwere taken? And the fact that the shovel test took place here and that one\nof its other names is Running Blood, what, this indicates nothing of\nsignificance? \n\nWhy does RT yell at Victor for waving at the government military craft and\nwhat possible purpose to the story does our not hearing his entire\nadmonition serve? With Wolfe, what you don't hear is unusually important.\nJust as what appears to be simple casual asides are also important. Also\nbeware when a Wolfe character who is guessing the nature of something says,\n\"this probably meant...or was probably used for...\" Because it's standard\nWolfe misdirection.\n\nWhat does Victor mean when he says \"I knew everything that I was to learn\nlater.\" What is \"everything\"? What does he learn later? Simply that Dad's a\nbum and Mom's a slut? What happens to Dad's hands? Arthritis? Gasp. The\nhorror, the horror.\n\nWhat is the purpose of Dr. Hagsmith's abo fable? Is it totally nonrelevant\nto the narrative, just a little bit of shared folklore that has nothing to\ndo with the novel? Remember it is in Victor's parody of Dr. Hagsmith's tale\nthat we first hear the name Three Faces. How are both tales, since one is\nparodic, linked? Or don't you think Victor mother's name is Eve/Three\nFaces, because Victor never says \"Her name was Eve when we lived in\nRoncevaux, but Three Faces when we were in the back of beyond.\" By this\nsort of reverse induction the woman in the cell next to VRT in the citadel\nis simply a crazy thief of no importance to FIFTH HEAD because nobody tells\nus otherwise? [Still your best work, Tony: be proud.]\n\nWhat function does Cinderella bring to the tale in your version? More\nWolfeish noodling wordplay? Gene the punster lives on?\n\nAlso, if you're skeptical about the abos even possessing shape-changing\nabilities, how is it you used the opposite line of reasoning when you made\nyour Don't You Think These Little French Girls Could Be Abos presentation a\nfew days ago--not that they couldn't be detected by their bad handwriting,\nbecause as VRT reminds us, there must always be one student in a class who\nhas the worst handwriting, but it is *never* a girl.\n\nLet me sum up the case for my defendent with two notions, your honor, after\nfirst thanking our opponent once more for voicing his objections. In my\nheart of hearts I believe both men simply seek the truth.\n\nNow Mr. Borski will be first to admit he took some liberties with his\ntheory. But while he may have used a few odd-sized bricks to fill the\ninterstices in his wall, he believes the mortar is sound. Simply stated he\nbelieves his conjectures more easily explain the birth of Victor Roy\nTrenchard than the\nGondwanaland-reverse-Doniken-we're-all-just-humans-playing-on-the-same-big-s\nlide approach.\n\nHe would also like to quote Roy Trenchard from the testimony of Dr. Marsch.\n\"It's all falsity. Everything is false, Dr. Marsch.\" \n\nObviously, no truth here, right?\n\nDefense rests.\n\n(Dupont goes back to table, slides in next to client. Whereupon defendant\nlean over, whispers, \"Don't get too comfortable, Duport. I haven't posted\nmy revelvations about Jeannine Wolfe yet.\"\n\n(Large audible moan from Dupont). \n \n" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-06-05T15:24:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Trenchard, Abo: Part II", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's start by clearing up some misconceptions:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. The abo tissue would reject the human transplant, but reproduction\nbetween human and abo is possible? Because this is what you're saying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No it's not. I'm saying that the Free People are humans, from\nGondwonaland - a theory that is raised far too often to be dismissed out\nof hand. (Or out of limb, come to that.) That's why abos and humans can\nreproduce, that's why if anyone did graft a limb onto an abo it _would_\ntake. You, however, by saying that the abos can change shape and grow\nnew limbs, are saying that they are alien. If that were so then no,\ngrafting wouldn't take and interbreeding wouldn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also reread Hagsmith's tale. Specifically note how the abo half of the\nsecond cattle-drover's wife would steal something, but the human half would\nput it back." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have reread it. This is a story about a new woman that is grown from\nan arm (by a third party). Notice too that the new wife is abo \"except\nfor the one arm\" - because the arm she has been grown from was a human\none. This is not a story about an abo who can regrow a lost limb, and no\nsuch ability is implied. (As for its \"purpose\": among other things it\nserves to show just how mythologized the abos have become. How large a\ngrain of salt we should take with every story.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a minute. You can change your shape into a dead tree or a carabou,\nwith the attendant wild morphing of form, but you can't recast the distal\nportion of a limb into the form of a hand or retransmogrify yourself\naltogether? If antlers, why not hands? If tree branches, why not fingers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Who_ can change his or her shape into a tree or carabou? When do we\n_ever_ see one of the Free People doing this? This is why I say that\nthe whole shape-changing business is riddled with misconceptions. \n\n\nTo begin with, we should distinguish between actual Lon Chaney type\nshape-changing and mimicry. We have clear evidence that the Free People\nare great mimics. VRT can take off Dr H, and make himself look\nolder/younger at will. His mother can assume a number of guises. The\nlittle French girls get the best boys. This may be a matter of voice and\nthe muscles of the face, as RT says, or a telepathic ability, but it is\na thousand miles away from the ability to change into an animal or a\ntree. If the Free People could change shape, why didn't they change into\nbirds and fly out of the pit in \"A Story\"? Why didn't Sandwalker make\nhis escape by changing into a Goul-Bear, or a Fast Thing With Very Long\nLegs? Why do the Marshmen have to tie their genitals off with women's\nhair in order to lose them, instead of just reabsorbing them? (Why don't\nthey grow back?) Why don't any of the Hill People or the Marshmen even\n-once- raise the subject of being able to change shape? Just once.\n\nThey don't because they can't. There may well be a form of indigenous\nAnnese life that can genuinely shape-shift, personally I'm sure there\nis, but it has nothing to do with the Free People.\n\nSo where has the confusion come from? From people not seeing, and not\nlistening. We're shown this quite explicitly. M. Culot's grandfather\nused to see Annese all the time. He knows that there are many different\nraces. \"Others, he said, might think them to be all one, but the other\nknew less than he. He would have said that to the blind, all cats are\nblack.\" When asked what one looked like, M Culot junior remembers him\nsaying \"sometimes likes a man, but sometimes like the post of a fence.\"\nSounds like a shape-shifting human, right? Sure, except that a moment\nlater M Culot changes his story: \"It may have been that he said:\n'Sometimes like a man, sometimes like old wood.'\" Now that is something\nvery different. That sounds very much like a Shadow Child, and even more\nlike someone saying \"some of them look like us, but some of them are\ngnarled and twisted, like old wood.\" Bear in mind that we have been\ncarefully told that M Culot senior was (a) angry at the time, and (b)\nknown to \"speak the truth in such a way as to make it sound\nimpertinent\". He's not going to spell things out to those who refuse to\nsee.\n\nSome Annese lifeforms can shape-change, some can't. But this distinction\nhas been lost in the re-telling, and in the mythologisation of the\nunknown. What do you think we are being told when Marsch tells us the\nfollowing? \"...the reports are very contradictory. Even in the\ninterviews I have, it's often difficult to believe that two subjects are\nare talking about the same thing, and the reports of the early explorers\n- such of them as have survived - show even less agreement.\"\n\nLike I said, the issue of shapechanging is a debate in itself. Back to\nyour arguments:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "RT can read rather well? Did I miss something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Marsch hands RT his card RT reads it. \"'Ah, you are a doctor! Look,\nVictor, our visitor is a doctor of philosophy! ...Doctor, Doctor\nMarsch'\" He spent all his formative years in a mudhole, but he knows\n\"PhD\" when he sees it? And a name like Marsch? Victor can read because\nVictor went to school as a boy. His mother didn't and can't, so why\nshould an abo father fare any better?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We're shown that VRT lacks the manual dexterity to have made the fake\nflint tools RT shows Marsch. That leaves RT. How did he make them, if\nhe's an abo too?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Victor comes right out and says such tools are made with one's teeth" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No he doesn't. He says \"With their teeth.\" Like any sulky adolescent\nconfronted by the embarrassing stupidity of adults, Victor is getting\nhis revenge by providing the most minimal, unhelpful response possible.\nHe's saying two things. He's saying \"You think my people made stuff like\nthat? What with, their teeth?\" And he's saying \"When they wanted to cut\nsomething they used their teeth. You morons. \"Only a few lines further\non, he clarifies this: \"The Free People didn't use those things. ...if\nthey wanted to cut something they used their teeth.\"\n\nYou don't -seriously - think it's possible to fashion flint tools with\nyour teeth, do you Robert?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marsch later adds such tools require little manual dexterity to chink\nout." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. That's why RT can make them with his arthritic hands. VRT\nstill can't because he's a hopeless ham-fisted abo. He doesn't have this\nskill because none of his people have any tool-using skills. How many\ntimes do you count Sandwalker using a flint knife? And the other Hill\nPeople? And the Marshmen? Anyone?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"My mother...had been buttoned into her yellow dress by him.\" Buttoned\nin because the Annese can't handle buttons any more than they can handle\ntools or writing. How can Trenchard do that if he's Annese too?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You ever see any old style frontier dress buttons or even a pea coat?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "VRT's mother just happens to be wearing a dress that she can't button up\nherself? In a story where the ability to manipulate human artifacts is\nabsolutely crucial???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The 15 year figure is given on p. 147 by Mr. D..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately your page numbers are different to mine. I've hunted up\nand down for a passage resembling the one you imply, and the nearest I\ncan get is where M. d'F says \"they have a son of fifteen or so\". You're\ngoing to have to give me a quote for this one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're also not reading Dollo correctly... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the least of my arguments, and I'm quite happy to bow to your\nsuperior knowledge. (I may ask you for details later on, simply for my\nown curiosity.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He would also like to quote Roy Trenchard from the testimony of Dr. Marsch.\n\"It's all falsity. Everything is false, Dr. Marsch.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, wrong again, sorry. It's Victor who says that. And he's playing at\nbeing Dr\nHagsmith at the time." } ] } ] }