{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/758", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 758, "subject": "migrations, humanity and Aunt Jeanine", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-06-10T21:37:15+00:00", "last": "1998-06-11T11:58:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-06-10T21:37:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) migrations, humanity and Aunt Jeanine", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been putting off getting into this fray. However:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis (who thinks that if he has to suspend his disbelief in God to\naccept the logic underpinning The Book of the New Sun, everyone else can\naccept a trifling prehistoric migration or two.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony, what if we (or I, forsaking the editorial we) were to accept that\n\"abos\" came from Earth, but we then rejected the Gondwanaland premise? What\nif we simply assumed that a boatload of mixed-sex colonists operating at our\nown considerably slower-than-light speed at some time in our own not-so-far\nfuture landed on Ste. Anne and, in the generations before a second,\ntechnically whizzier second ship (with subsequent ships)landed on Ste.\nCroix, \"went native.\" What if, like me and probably you, they'd never been\ntaught how to make just about anything I can easily lay my hands on at my\ndesk? That's why I say colonists rather than explorers, who presumably have\nbeen trained in many skills. Or, if that won't wash, say that nearly\neveryone was killed except for a few folks as dumb as me. And that we then\ninbred and got kind of spacy, as I would imagine people do get under such\ncircumstances (cf Australia, if you like--hi Damien!). This, it seems to\nme, would create at least a rope bridge between you and Borski.\n\n(One of the advantages of Vironese names, BTW, is not having to call people\nby their last names, which seems rude, but there are other Roberts in the\ngroup--why don't you guys think about adopting Vironese names? They're fun,\nand distinctive.)\n\n\nWe pass to Dan'l and his modified Lamarkism:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once upon a time someone found out how to keep a fire under control\nin their cave or hut or whatever; this knowledge has been passed\ndown and, indeed, has itself evolved until carefully-controlled\nfires run our planes, trains, and automobiles. But \"controlling\nfire\" is an acquired characteristic, and one that each new\ngeneration has to acquire -- but our acquisition is heritable,\nbecause we bypass genetic heritage and pass it on through the\nextrabiotic matrix of culture, language, etc.\n\nThe same holds true, to a lesser extent, for many prelinguistic\nanimals -- cats and birds can readily be seen teaching their\noffspring how to perform various survival-oriented activities.\nThey, we, inherit the ability to teach and to be taught, but the\nactual content of the teaching, the extrabiotic inheritance, is\ninherited but always acquired." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. They devolved because of lack of ability to pass on acquired\nknowledge. Also (this is 1972), they're a bit New Agey to start with.\n\nOn to Borski, with a fan to blow off a bit o' hot air (sorry, buddy, but\n'tis true)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been thinking some about various critical analyses as they've been\napplied to the list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now I'll be first to admit that my way of looking at Gene Wolfe may be\nsomewhat different than others. I subscribe to the Secret Shadow theory,\nespecially re FIFTH HEAD. My belief--again, at least in regards to this\nparticular work--is that while its grand theme is the search for identity,\nits central conceit is that no one is simply who he or she seems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[another snip]\n\nI think the central conceit, just as in several other stories and novellas\nwe've studied, is: What does it mean to be human? That also comes up in\nTBOTNS (Jonas, Jolenta, the creatures in the cave, etc. etc. etc.), and I\nwill bet you a silver dollar that it's going to be a big thing in TBOTSS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In all of Gene Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS, my favorite character has\nalways been Aunt Jeannine. This is because many, many mysteries obtain to\nher that Gene Wolfe never seems to address anywhere. What are we to make,\nfor example, of her crippled nature? How did it result--either congenitally\nor through misfortune? Why hasn't she had her legs--which are described as\nbeing withered--fixed? After all, we know from events in V.R.T. that\ncryobanks carrying replacement limbs exist. We also know that Maitre has\nthe capabilities to transplant supernumerary limbs--witness the four-armed\nslave seen in the warehouse caper. And yet Jeannine remains crippled." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't know that those limbs are transplanted; they're just as likely a\nmutation. It happens, especially with the kind of help Maitre provides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still another aspect I always found puzzling is her desire for money. Why\nwould she need it when all her material needs are being taken care of?\nDespite what is later revealed to be financial difficulties, surely, from\nthe descriptions we are given of the Maison du Chien with its fountains and\nrooftop gardens, the whorehouse is no dump. Why then this need for\nadditional funds? A gold-plated wheelchair? What would she do with the\nmoney? Retire to the Florida equivalent of Port-Mimizon? And does the\nquarrel that is mentioned as being responsible for Jeannine and Maitre no\nlonger speaking to one another and having separate quarters result from\ngreed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She doesn't seem to me that greedy; it's just part of the fabled French\nthriftiness. She's a good manager. Why couldn't she just disapprove of\nMaitre because he's a thorough shit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another thing I found curious is that she also attends the first play\nNumber Five and his cronies put on--why does Wolfe have her do this, since\nher presence at the play adds nothing in the way of plot advancement? Yes,\nit allows us to glimpse her withered legs pre-departure, but this could\njust as easily be conveyed by having Number Five notice them as she\nlevitates up the spiral stairwell?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Wolfe wants the sideshow of her futuristic prosthetic device, but I\nthought her presence indicated that she has begun to feel like family to the\nboys--Maitre would never attend an event like this, but Jeannine has unbent\nto them. She loves them. I like this; I don't think it's odd at all, plot or\nno plot, but simply part of a kind of richness of writing that allows a\nmaiden aunt to love and be loved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then there is her scientific persona of Aubrey Veil, the originator of\nVeil's Hypothesis. Whatever would possess the madam of a whorehouse to\nundertake the study of aboriginal aliens on a completely different world?\nWhat leads her to formulate her intriguing hypothesis--that the abos of\nSainte Anne have killed and replaced the humans? What is the significance\nof 'Aubrey Veil?'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, hell, this is a scientific family. They have theories, they do\nexperiments. that's clear from the git-go, and there's nothing odd about\nit--it's in their genes. Aubrey is a sexually ambiguous name and\n\"Veil\"--well, she's put a veil over her identity. Not an unsmart thing to do\nif you're being supported by a whorehouse. As to why she should have this\nparticular hypotheis--well, that's what all three novellas are about, isn't\nit? What is human?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lastly then, we have an additional mystery to consider and here I need to\nquote it direct. Victor, cast in the prison darkness of the citadel, is\nreminiscing about his get-togethers with Jeannine. Notice exactly how he\nstates it:\n\nShe possessed real intelligence as well as a fascinating mind, and we had a\nnumber of long talks--often with one or more of her \"girls,\" as she called\nthem, for audience. (p.230)\n\nApart from the slightly ludicrous notion of a bunch of vaginas-for-hire\nsitting around listening to two scholars chew the anthropological fat, the\nsentence is preposterously redundant. No editor worth his or her salt would\n*ever* let a writer use both quote marks and the appending 'as she called\nthem.' In fact, there is no need to use either. Cross out the quote marks,\nthe 'as she called them' and maybe add a \"present\" and the sentence still\nreads absolutely the same. Remember the old saw from Creative Writing\n101--\"Never say things twice or be redundant\"? Well, this is Wolfe saying\nit three times and it's a clue--one of his patent tricks that he uses\nfrequently, and over and over again --i.e.,\nthat the tea-and-Leakey get-togethers discussed above are anything but what\nthey appear to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems pretty feeble to me. Aunt J. is always nice to the girls, and why\nshouldn't they hang out. (Strict, too, I imagine.) And the quote marks\nthing makes no sense at all; plenty of editors (and copy editors, who really\nrule in these realms) would let it go." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In light of the above paragraph and to continue with what has been a long\nseries of similar suppositions I would like to make the following proposal:\nwouldn't it be exquisitely apposite if Jeannine Wolfe herself validated\nVeil's Hypothesis? But then, yes--wouldn't this mean that Jeannine's an\nabo?\n\nAbsolutely. But how can this be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's lots more of this, but I reject it all unless Veil's teasing\nhypothesis is true. Which it may be, but then #5 is pretty much correct when\nhe says that it doesn't make any difference. In other words, it's all very\nclever, but pretty much beside the point except as a sort of Mobius\ntwister--.e. if Jeanine is an abo, then nearly everyone else in the story is\nan abo too, except for possibly Marsch at some point. I don't think that's,\ngiven Maitre's and #5's manual dexterity, terribly likely.\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-06-11T11:58:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: migrations, humanity and Aunt Jeanine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\nTony, what if we (or I, forsaking the editorial we) were to accept that\n\"abos\" came from Earth, but we then rejected the Gondwanaland premise? What\nif we simply assumed that a boatload of mixed-sex colonists operating at our\nown considerably slower-than-light speed at some time in our own not-so-far\nfuture landed on Ste. Anne and, in the generations before a second,\ntechnically whizzier second ship (with subsequent ships)landed on Ste.\nCroix, \"went native.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely if such earlier expeditions had ever taken place Marsch and\nNumber 5 would raise this theory themselves? Why would they suggest such\na way-out idea as a prehistoric migration if this was an option?\n\nI also don't think that the novellas are set far enough in the future\nfor a STL crew to get to St Anne, and turn into the abos before the\nlater French colonists arrived. If the (presumably faster) French\ncolonists didn't pass the STL ship on the way, I think they would still\narrive before its crew could un-evolve the ability to use tools, which I\nimagine would take millenia. \n\n(And why raise the Gondwanaland premise in the first place? Why have the\nOld Wise One name-check Gondwanaland, Atlantis etc as if to confirm it?\n)" } ] } ] }