{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/77", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 77, "subject": "Theodicy", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-07-01T09:23:56+00:00", "last": "1997-07-01T17:43:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1997-07-01T09:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Theodicy", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tGimmeabreak! Was Shakespeare writing tracts instead of plays, because he\nhad messages for the monarchs? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This does not parse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Slimey Alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ratty,\n\nI define a Christian as someone who believes that he or she will\nattain\neternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Severian has never heard of\nJesus\nChrist, and he himself has brought salvation (through destruction) to\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\tWhoa! Agia refers to the Theoanthropos in 1:21. Also, in that chapter\nthe\nwoman missionary (Marie - Mary) is reading from the Urth equivalent of\nDeuteronomy 34. (1:21 = Shadow, ch. 21)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[skip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tWell, there are two questions here: 1. Is there a \"Jesus Christ\" in the\nUrth/Whorl universe; and 2. Is Severian a self-conscious follower of that\nperson? The answer to \"1\" is what I was dealing with. Some wrote that\nJesus\nis unknown in the Urth/Whorl universe. I pointed out that he clearly is,\nbecause of \"Theoanthropos.\" The more obvious line of evidence is the Silk\nquartet, where references to the crucifixion, to the sign of the cross,\netc. are more in evidence.\n\tAs for question 2., I don't know. Wolfe says that Severian is not what\nhe\nregards as a Christ figure (allegory of Christ, I take it), but a\nChristian\nfigure (allegory of a Christian, I take it). I don't understand why\nanyone\nwants to insist that Wolfe intends something he has stated clearly that\nhe\ndoes not intend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost certainly, Agia's Theoanthropos does refer to JC, though probably\nnot consciously. (If it were conscious, and she a believer, that would be\ninteresting, considering her character.) But he's not the only hero with\nsuch claims. Gilgamesh was 2/3 god and only 1/3 human; Herakles was 1/2\ngod. And so on. Urth is very old, and ancient stories tend to conflate, as\nthe Brown Book shows us again and again. The Theoanthropos could be taken\nas a composite figure, as indeed Silk's Outsider seems to be. In any case,\nhe doesn't seem to register with Severian.\n\nAs for Severian's being a Christian, well, let's agree to differ. Your idea\n(and perhaps Wolfe's) of what constitutes a Christian, even allegorically\n(whatever that may mean in this context), is not mine, nor, it seems, that\nof many of the rest of this group. \n\n[skip: kittens as baseballs]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tWell, that's (a) an irrelevant ad hominem argument, and (b) at least as\nfalse as true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(a) Granted. (I did put it in parens.) (b.) How so?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tBTW, are you the authoress of a book on hell that I happen to have on my\nshelf?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't looked at your shelf recently, but probably. Quaint term.\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-07-01T17:43:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Theodicy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 09:23 AM 7/1/97 -0400, you wrote:\n\n\nNUTRIA: \tGimmeabreak! Was Shakespeare writing tracts instead of plays,\nbecause he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "had messages for the monarchs? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ALGA:>This does not parse.\n\n\tI took you as writing that if Wolfe had an anti-idolatry polemic in his\nworks, they would not be literature. \n\n\nALGA: >Almost certainly, Agia's Theoanthropos does refer to JC, though\nprobably" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "not consciously. (If it were conscious, and she a believer, that would be\ninteresting, considering her character.) But he's not the only hero with\nsuch claims. Gilgamesh was 2/3 god and only 1/3 human; Herakles was 1/2\ngod. And so on. Urth is very old, and ancient stories tend to conflate, as\nthe Brown Book shows us again and again. The Theoanthropos could be taken\nas a composite figure, as indeed Silk's Outsider seems to be. In any case,\nhe doesn't seem to register with Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, I agree about Agia as a person. And I cannot gainsay your other\npoints as well. But I don't think Wolfe believes that Christianity will\ndisappear in the far future, so the assumption that Christianity is simply\nunknown at that time does not \"parse.\" Silk's religion certainly has a good\ndeal of it in the background, and his enlightenments clearly show Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Severian's being a Christian, well, let's agree to differ. Your idea\n(and perhaps Wolfe's) of what constitutes a Christian, even allegorically\n(whatever that may mean in this context), is not mine, nor, it seems, that\nof many of the rest of this group. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tSure. We can lay it to rest, FOR NOW!!!!!!\n\nThe Rat" } ] } ] }