# Theodicy *The Urth list — 2 messages, 2 voices, 01 Jul 1997* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Alice Turner *01 Jul 1997, 09:23* > Gimmeabreak! Was Shakespeare writing tracts instead of plays, because he > had messages for the monarchs? This does not parse. >>> Slimey Alga wrote: >>>> Ratty, >>>> >>>> I define a Christian as someone who believes that he or she will >>>> attain >>>> eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Severian has never heard of >>>> Jesus >>>> Christ, and he himself has brought salvation (through destruction) to >>>> Urth. >>> Whoa! Agia refers to the Theoanthropos in 1:21. Also, in that chapter >>> the >>> woman missionary (Marie - Mary) is reading from the Urth equivalent of >>> Deuteronomy 34. (1:21 = Shadow, ch. 21). [skip] > Well, there are two questions here: 1. Is there a "Jesus Christ" in the > Urth/Whorl universe; and 2. Is Severian a self-conscious follower of that > person? The answer to "1" is what I was dealing with. Some wrote that > Jesus > is unknown in the Urth/Whorl universe. I pointed out that he clearly is, > because of "Theoanthropos." The more obvious line of evidence is the Silk > quartet, where references to the crucifixion, to the sign of the cross, > etc. are more in evidence. > As for question 2., I don't know. Wolfe says that Severian is not what > he > regards as a Christ figure (allegory of Christ, I take it), but a > Christian > figure (allegory of a Christian, I take it). I don't understand why > anyone > wants to insist that Wolfe intends something he has stated clearly that > he > does not intend. Almost certainly, Agia's Theoanthropos does refer to JC, though probably not consciously. (If it were conscious, and she a believer, that would be interesting, considering her character.) But he's not the only hero with such claims. Gilgamesh was 2/3 god and only 1/3 human; Herakles was 1/2 god. And so on. Urth is very old, and ancient stories tend to conflate, as the Brown Book shows us again and again. The Theoanthropos could be taken as a composite figure, as indeed Silk's Outsider seems to be. In any case, he doesn't seem to register with Severian. As for Severian's being a Christian, well, let's agree to differ. Your idea (and perhaps Wolfe's) of what constitutes a Christian, even allegorically (whatever that may mean in this context), is not mine, nor, it seems, that of many of the rest of this group. [skip: kittens as baseballs] > Well, that's (a) an irrelevant ad hominem argument, and (b) at least as > false as true. (a) Granted. (I did put it in parens.) (b.) How so? > BTW, are you the authoress of a book on hell that I happen to have on my > shelf? I haven't looked at your shelf recently, but probably. Quaint term. -alga- --- ### Jim Jordan *01 Jul 1997, 17:43 · follows Alice Turner* At 09:23 AM 7/1/97 -0400, you wrote: NUTRIA: Gimmeabreak! Was Shakespeare writing tracts instead of plays, because he >> had messages for the monarchs? ALGA:>This does not parse. I took you as writing that if Wolfe had an anti-idolatry polemic in his works, they would not be literature. ALGA: >Almost certainly, Agia's Theoanthropos does refer to JC, though probably > not consciously. (If it were conscious, and she a believer, that would be > interesting, considering her character.) But he's not the only hero with > such claims. Gilgamesh was 2/3 god and only 1/3 human; Herakles was 1/2 > god. And so on. Urth is very old, and ancient stories tend to conflate, as > the Brown Book shows us again and again. The Theoanthropos could be taken > as a composite figure, as indeed Silk's Outsider seems to be. In any case, > he doesn't seem to register with Severian. Well, I agree about Agia as a person. And I cannot gainsay your other points as well. But I don't think Wolfe believes that Christianity will disappear in the far future, so the assumption that Christianity is simply unknown at that time does not "parse." Silk's religion certainly has a good deal of it in the background, and his enlightenments clearly show Christ. > As for Severian's being a Christian, well, let's agree to differ. Your idea > (and perhaps Wolfe's) of what constitutes a Christian, even allegorically > (whatever that may mean in this context), is not mine, nor, it seems, that > of many of the rest of this group. Sure. We can lay it to rest, FOR NOW!!!!!! The Rat ---