{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/775", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 775, "subject": "5HC: outline of reading", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-06-14T05:14:00+00:00", "last": "1998-06-15T00:39:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1998-06-14T05:14:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC: outline of reading", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The First Big Twist Goes like this:\n\nWe read \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" and say, wow, great story.\n\nWe start the next one, \"`A Story,' by John V. Marsch.\" We think, oh,\nwasn't he that anthropologist from Earth who blundered into the truth\nin \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"? Neat, now we get a new tale from a\ncharacter that was relatively minor.\n\nOh look, it is one of those warm 'n' fuzzy noble savage romances,\nthinly fig-leafed as anthropologically derived. Well cool; if we\nkeep our filters on we might be able to figure out where the facts\nare. And peer into the full bore \"many different abos before humans\ncame\" scenario.\n\nAt the end we say Gee, that was a creepy story after all.\n\nThen we read the mishmash of \"V.R.T.\" and learn that:\n\n(1) A boy (abo or human or \"half-breed\") killed Marsch and took his\nplace on an expedition on Sainte Anne (where \"A Story\" was set).\n\n(2) We never saw Marsch in \"5HC,\" we only saw the boy impersonating\nMarsch. (And Number Five was right when he seemed most wrong.) So we\nrevise elements of our reading(s) of \"5HC.\"\n\n(3) The story by Marsch wasn't by Marsch, it was by the boy\nimpersonating Marsch. And thus it is less the anthropological\nromance that we initially thought it was and more like the deranged\nfantasies and coded confession of a psycho murderer. So maybe there\nreally =are= no abos--the potential \"truth\" content is shot to hell.\nWe revise our reading(s) of \"A Story\" drastically.\n\n(4) We never knew Marsch, but we can know him through what remains of\nhis journal. And there, with all this talk of artifacts of stone\nbeing real or forged, amid all the clutter of abo yes, abo no, abo\nhigh, abo low, there are the ruins of the circular temple with tree\nrings going back long before the French landed. Not a breath is made\n(IIRC) in suggesting how this temple might have been faked (in\ncontrast to the stone tools). Yet their physical presence is a rather\npowerful indication that =someone= was living on the planet before the\nFrench came; that they were sophisticated enough to know the days in a\nsolar year, to plan and build a temple of living trees (ceder trees,\nwhich puts us back in the ancient middle east, Humbaba and Ashtarte)\nas a sort of woodhenge (no, I'm not making that term up).\n\nThe fact that the ruins are there, just as the informants said, also\ngives strength to the idea that the sacred cave really exists, too.\nSo we have to revise our reading(s) of \"A Story\" again, bringing the\nfantasy back to a level approaching some sort of anthropological\nreconstruction, which of course was our initial reading.\n\n(5) The boy as Marsch was arrested for the murder of Number Four,\nwhich he didn't commit. The authorities know it, too. But we know\nand they probably know that he is guilty of murdering Marsch, so he\ndeserves to be where he is.\n\nThese then are the grosser details and the initial loop the loops,\ntwists, and sudden retroviruses contained within 5HC.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-06-15T00:39:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) 5HC: outline of reading (warning long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We start the next one, \"`A Story,' by John V. Marsch.\" We think, oh,\nwasn't he that anthropologist from Earth who blundered into the truth\nin \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"? Neat, now we get a new tale from a\ncharacter that was relatively minor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just reread 5HC because of the recent and ongoing discussion. This was an\nenjoyable experience since Wolfe gives you so much to discover upon\nrereading, as everyone on this list well knows.\n\nIn fact, there seem to be as many mysteries about 5HC as there are about\nthe whole BotNS. I think this may be mainly due to the fact that in 5HC\nWolfe means to leave many mysteries unsolvable; I mean it's all very well\n(and very true) to say that when Wolfe leaves somwthing unsaid it's\nimportant, but there is just so much left unsaid in 5HC that I cannot\nbelieve we are supposed to be able to unravel all of it or even most of it.\n\nIn 5HC, \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" turns out to be the simplest part of\nthe novella trilogy. (I imagine some may not agree.) Certainly it is the\npart best able to stand on its own. (Anyway, it is the only part that did.)\n\nAmong the many mysteries in \"'A Story' by John V. Marsch\"/\"V. R. T.\",\nalbeit a very minor one, is Marsch's name. While it seems that his name\nmust be John V. Marsch I don't think we can be sure. That his last name is\nreally Marsch seems almost certain. The name we know him by in \"Fifth Head\"\nis Dr. Marsch (although this is really VRT as psuedo-Marsch--presumably he\nis pretending to be someone real however). And his first name is probably\nJohn. After all, outside of Wolfe's writings, John is a very common first\nname. But, doesn't it seem odd that his first name is John when we find out\n(in \"A Story\") that John means 'a man' and is the first name of all male\nhill people [1]. (Of course again, we have to keep in mind who, most\nlikely, is writing \"A Story.\") And what about the middle initial; could the\n\"V.\" stand for Victor?\n\nYou may be saying, \"What rot!\" (Yes, you are. In those very words. I can\nalmost hear you. [2]) But it really is very hard to confirm Dr. Marsch's\nfull name. We never get to \"read\" any of Dr. Marsch's cards; we only get to\nhear what other people (Number 5, R. T.) call Marsch after they read the\ncards and they just say \"Dr. Marsch\".\n\nThe only place we see \"John V. Marsch\" (aside from the title of the second\nnovella) is when (in \"V. R. T.\") a mention is made of a passport in that\nname. But \"it may have been tampered with\"!\n\nPresumably, the St. Croix \"authorities\" have contacted Earth (and more\nspecificaly Columbia University) to get Marsch's bona fides and therefore\nfound out that there really is such a person. But we are never told this\ndefinitely by a person we can trust.\n\nIn any case, if the original Marsch didn't have a middle initial (or had a\ndifferent one) and VRT/Marsch started to use V, it might not have been\nquestioned.\n\nEnough! I just am trying to show by this too prolonged example that almost\nnothing seems certain in 5HC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(5) The boy as Marsch was arrested for the murder of Number Four,\nwhich he didn't commit. The authorities know it, too. But we know\nand they probably know that he is guilty of murdering Marsch, so he\ndeserves to be where he is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say \"they POSSIBLY know that he is guilty of murdering Marsch.\"\nThey seem to be sure he is a spy and not who he says he is but it seems to\nme that they think (at least some of \"them,\" some of the time) that he was\nalways a spy, even before his trip to the back of beyond and he was the\nsame person before and after.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n[1] Are there any other fans of \"The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai Across\nthe Eighth Dimension\" who think that some person behind this film must have\nread 5HC? For those who haven't seen it, all of the \"good aliens\" in it are\nnamed John Something-usually-silly (John Palooka, John Yaya, John\nSmallberries, etc.).\n\n[2] I admit I am getting a little silly here, but not as silly as a couple\nof posts by Robert Borski." } ] } ] }