{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/779", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 779, "subject": "Saltus Mine Deep One", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "1998-06-14T17:54:00+00:00", "last": "1998-06-16T12:15:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1998-06-14T17:54:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is good to step back and recall that the reason why we continue to\nturn this one over (and why alga waxes huffy against Wolfe, showing\nthat he is both extra special and unique ) is that Severian\nbasically says, IIRC, yeah, I didn't know the name of that critter\nthen but I do (or I think I do) now. Which makes it into a clear\nriddle for the reader, suggesting that we've been given enough clues\nto figure it out.\n\nThe central answer, then, is a specific name (what, again?! ).\nFor all we know, it might be \"Abaddon,\" the angel guarding the pit of\nhell (if \"Abaddon\" <> subspace and \"Abaddon\" <> planet Mercury!).\n\nMaybe there is a bit of Jesus's visit to hell--in Dante's work wasn't\nthere something about landscape shifting earthquake(s) caused by the\npassage of the saviour?\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-06-15T16:01:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disagreeing with so learned a one as mantis is a perilous\nundertaking, especially for a bear. However, needs must." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 17:54 1998-06-14 GMT, mantis wrote:\nIt is good to step back and recall that the reason why we continue to\nturn this one over (and why alga waxes huffy against Wolfe, showing\nthat he is both extra special and unique ) is that Severian\nbasically says, IIRC, yeah, I didn't know the name of that critter\nthen but I do (or I think I do) now. Which makes it into a clear\nriddle for the reader, suggesting that we've been given enough clues\nto figure it out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. To be precise:\n\n\"What creature it was we had called from the roots of the continent\nI think I now know.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The central answer, then, is a specific name (what, again?! )." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing about a name there. There is the grinding sound, which does\nsuggest that the thing is freeing itself from long imprisonment in\nthe rock, perhaps. Then the footsteps:\n\n\"From far below I heard a step that might have been the walking of\na tower on the Final Day, when it is said all the cities of Urth\nwill stride forth to meet the dawn of the New Sun.\"\n\nNow there isn't much about towers walking elsewhere in the book\n(reasonably enough!) so the occurrence of it in Citadel is the Clue\nthat mantis suggests must exist. It even reads like one:\n\n\"Far behind it loomed a machine that flashed fire, a machine that\nwas like a tower walking.\"\n\nIt's hard to see how it could be much more explicit than this.\nI was really quite surprised to find a reference on the next\npage but one:\n\n\"I opened my mouth to cry for help, then closed it again,\nthinking I might call upon myself something more terrible\nthan that I had once waked in the mine of the man-apes.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For all we know, it might be \"Abaddon,\" the angel guarding the pit of\nhell (if \"Abaddon\" <> subspace and \"Abaddon\" <> planet Mercury!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a) see above\n\nb) would Severian fear something \"more terrible\" than the angel\n of hell turning up on the battlefield?\n\nc) *all* large living creatures on Urth have to live in the water.\n So it must be a machine.\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshua A. Solomon", "address": "j.solomon at ucl.ac.uk" }, "date": "1998-06-15T20:37:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Peter Westlake wrote:\n\"What creature it was we had called from the roots of the continent\nI think I now know.\"\n\n\"From far below I heard a step that might have been the walking of\na tower on the Final Day, when it is said all the cities of Urth\nwill stride forth to meet the dawn of the New Sun.\"\n\n\"Far behind it loomed a machine that flashed fire, a machine that\nwas like a tower walking.\"\n\n\"I opened my mouth to cry for help, then closed it again,\nthinking I might call upon myself something more terrible\nthan that I had once waked in the mine of the man-apes.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could this be a rocket, or an ICBM?Severian thinks that the Citadel in Nessus is\n\n(at least part of) a city, but we know that it is\nreally a bunch of rocketships.\n\nbee" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Joshua A. Solomon\nThe Institute of Ophthalmology\n11 - 43 Bath Street\nLondon EC1V 9EL\nVoice: (44) 171 608 6924\nFax: (44) 171 608 6846\nj.solomon at ucl.ac.uk\nhttp://vision.arc.nasa.gov/personnel/jsolomon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marty Light", "address": "marty_light at siecor.com" }, "date": "1998-06-15T18:41:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ditto on Alga's comment about Peter S.'s translation! It's been great\nlurking in the background, watching the posts proliferate. Not that anyone\never needs a reason to re-read Wolfe, but 5HC is getting another perusal by\nme. \"A-bo, a-bo, it's off to read I go...\" No, I'm not going off on some\n\"Three Fingers\" discussion; rather, some idle speculation of mine own\nwhich mantis/borski/etal's comments will dwarf in no time:\n\nPeter's Stephenson & Westlake (aka SBear) have been guessing about the type\nof machine awakened at the mine. I've always assumed it was some sort of\nmajor-league mining equipment -- perhaps an overgrown pile driver. In a\nvertical orientation, a pile driver could generate some sparks, lots of\nnoise, and appear like a tower walking. Serverian could have unknowingly\ntriggered the equipment into action as he traveled through the mine.\n\nFinal question: Are \"Endangered Species\" and \"Planet Engineering\" still in\nprint? My copy of 5HC lists \"...Species\" on the Tor list, but I have been\nunable to turn up a copy. Thanks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-06-15T19:36:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marty wrote:\nFinal question: Are \"Endangered Species\" and \"Planet Engineering\" still in\nprint? My copy of 5HC lists \"...Species\" on the Tor list, but I have been\nunable to turn up a copy. Thanks!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've tried everywhere for both of these, to no avail. However, check out\namazon.com and try their \"out of print\" ordering, they turned up a copy of\n\"Species\" within a matter of hours, but I regretfully couldn't afford it at\nthe moment. You may have to pay a little extra, but I'm sure it's worth it\nto you.\n\nJason Voegele\n(still lingering, although my \"Urth\" folder is starting to become an archive\nin its own right)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ifh.de" }, "date": "1998-06-16T09:28:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Peter Westlake wrote:\n(pedantically, GW wrote and PW typed in and added quotes)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"From far below I heard a step that might have been the walking of\na tower on the Final Day, when it is said all the cities of Urth\nwill stride forth to meet the dawn of the New Sun.\"\n\n\"I opened my mouth to cry for help, then closed it again,\nthinking I might call upon myself something more terrible\nthan that I had once waked in the mine of the man-apes.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just wanted to agree (belatedly --- fast list!) with the Lovecraft\novertones. (The Baba Yaga joke was good, btw.) All we need is the\nword `eldritch' and a reference to the forbidden Necronomicon of the\nmad Arab Abdul Alhazred. The ancientness and otherworldliness of\nLovecraft's creatures translates well to Wolfe, although we don't\nusually get the horror element as clearly as here.\n\nAs for created beings: I left the first quote in as a contrast ---\nwhat's missing in Lovecraft is the sense of something having been\n`engineered', as a tower is but a shuggoth (have I got that right?)\nisn't. There are parallels: the are lots of cases in Lovecraft of\ninventors or people who are making something nameless in their\nbasements which tend to remind me of the things you find in the back\nof the fridge (or refrigerator for you lot over there) a few months\ntoo late. It somehow seems more chemical than physical, though.\nStrange that Wolfe picked the name `chems' for his whorl creatures ---\nmaybe that was a deliberate way of making them seem more organic, in\ncomparison with taluses etc.\n\nBy the way, Lovecraft has some of my favourite `how not to do it' pieces\nof prose, I'm glad GW wasn't too heavily influenced: \"Dark the caverns\nwhere no man has trod and evil the mind that is held by no head\" [who\nwas it said `backward ran the sentences until reeled the mind'?], and\nmy all-time favourite: \"What we heard was not the fabulous note of any\nburied blasphemey of elder earth from whose supernal toughness an\nage-denied polar sun had evoked a monstrous response\" which says it all,\nreally (it's from `At the Mountains of Madness' and I think what they\nheard was something like `tekelili' --- come to think of it, the\nAntartic remains in this story, one of Lovecraft's longest, are\nrather Wolfean, too).\n\nIf you need a Vironese name for me (though last time I came near the\nplace His Cognizance made the sign of addition at me and vanished) you\ncan call me `Corncrake', if it hasn't been taken. No associations, I\njust like the word. I will continue to respond to Peter S or pws.\n\npws" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-06-16T12:15:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Saltus Mine Deep One", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for created beings: I left the first quote in as a contrast ---\nwhat's missing in Lovecraft is the sense of something having been\n`engineered', as a tower is but a shuggoth (have I got that right?)\nisn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, a shoggoth is engineered, rather surprisingly for Lovecraft. \"At\nthe Mountains of Madness\" is about as close as he ever comes to writing\n\"hard sf.\"\n\n----------------------------\nThey had done the same thing on other planets; having manufactured not only\nnecessary foods, but certain multicellular protoplamic masses capable of\nmoulding their tissues into all sorts of temporary organs under hypnotic\ninfluence and thereby forming ideal slaves to perform the heavy work of the\ncommunity. [p. 272, _The Annotated H. P. Lovecraft_, S. T. Joshi, ed. ]\n----------------------------\n\n\"They\" above are the \"star-headed Old Ones\" (please don't confuse them with\nthe \"star-bellied sneetches\").\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }