{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/8", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 8, "subject": "let it be, let it be", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "1997-04-16T07:50:36+00:00", "last": "1997-04-16T15:56:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Reusch", "address": "newsun at freeway.net" }, "date": "1997-04-16T07:50:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) let it be, let it be", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, TBoTNS was a *wonderful* book, but I can't help feeling that, with \nMantis' excellent Lexicon, and all of the time and discussion which has \nrevolved about it, it's being hashed to death. Why do we all continue to \nread Wolfe's books, the same book several times? Because each time we \nfind another question, or the answer to a previous mystery. That's what \nmakes it interesting. I, for one, would like to see a few mysteries \nremain in TBotNS. Let's open this up to include some of Wolfe's \nless-discussed, more obscure works. \n\nLike Castleview! The first time that I read this book, I remember \nthinking that reading each chapter was like watching an episode of Twin \nPeaks. You had no idea what just happened, or what was just about to \nhappen. The second time through, I thought that I had a handle on it, up \nuntil the final scene in front of the castle. Can someone enlighten me, \nconsidering that I don't know much more of the Arthurian mythos than does \nHollywood?\n\nAnd how about Peace? I've read the book several times without penetrating \npast the notion that it's more or less a collection of short stories \nwhich are in some way tied to the memories/fantasies of the dead or dying \ncentral character, sort of like Bradbury's Illustrated Man. What am I \nmissing?\n\nWell, I can't help but throw one question/observation out about Urth of \nthe New Sun. The writing style of this books starts out dramatically \ndifferent than the four which precede it. Has anyone noticed this, or \nthought why? At first I thought that it was just less polished by Wolfe, \nbut now I wonder. A different author? Severian 1, or Severian 2? Any \nthoughts on this one?\n\nVance" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-04-16T14:26:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) let it be, let it be", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:50 AM 4/16/97 -0000, you wrote:\n\nLike Castleview! The first time that I read this book, I remember \nthinking that reading each chapter was like watching an episode of Twin \nPeaks. You had no idea what just happened, or what was just about to \nhappen. The second time through, I thought that I had a handle on it, up \nuntil the final scene in front of the castle. Can someone enlighten me, \nconsidering that I don't know much more of the Arthurian mythos than does \nHollywood?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think Castleview is \"about\" perception. The various houses, castles,\nspaceships, etc. may all be the same thing (the Winnebago). The \"wild ride\"\nis perceived differently by various people. Etc.\n\tI don't \"get\" the details at the end either, but remember that we are ALL\ndescended from Arthur -- something easy to prove, and a point Wolfe made to\nme -- so that all the men are Arthurs, all the women Morganas, etc. Again:\nperception and role-playing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And how about Peace? I've read the book several times without penetrating \npast the notion that it's more or less a collection of short stories \nwhich are in some way tied to the memories/fantasies of the dead or dying \ncentral character, sort of like Bradbury's Illustrated Man. What am I \nmissing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAll I know are: (a) Weer is definitely dead; the falling tree disturbs his\ngrave; and (b) the book is a series of fictionalized autobiographical\nreflections over Wolfe's own life. I did discuss Peace with Gene in my\ninterview on Duggan's website.\n\tOh, and \"The Changeling\" (in Gene Wolfe's Book of Days) is set in the same\nworld as Peace (same town; same ghost story aspects) -- but I've never\nfigured it out. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I can't help but throw one question/observation out about Urth of \nthe New Sun. The writing style of this books starts out dramatically \ndifferent than the four which precede it. Has anyone noticed this, or \nthought why? At first I thought that it was just less polished by Wolfe, \nbut now I wonder. A different author? Severian 1, or Severian 2? Any \nthoughts on this one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI account for it as a Severian ten years older. That is plenty of time for\na man's style to change quite dramatically, especially after ten years of\nbeing a sedate monarch. \n\nNutria (Jim Jordan)\n\nP.S. Should we carry our Whorl nicknames over onto this Urthine list?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-04-16T15:56:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) let it be, let it be", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vance,\n\n\tAlthough I, too, think Michael Driussi's LEXICON URTHUS is\nexcellent, I would not say that the depths of Urth have been plummed. I\nwill not soon tire of discussing the minutia of NEW SUN. I can, however,\necho your sentiment of widening the discussion to Wolfe's other fine\nworks.\n\tLet me start by commenting on one of the books you mentioned,\nPEACE. This is Wolfe's first great book. The piece that declared to all\nthat he is now a master, his masterpeace. It still contains the greatest\nnumber of nested stories of any of his books. Yes, It does read like a\nseries of connected stories, but they are not connected linearly, as is\nBradbury's THE ILLUSTRATED MAN, but vertically, stories within stories,\nrevolving around the life/death of Weer(Wolfe). Alden Weer manipulates his\nafter death \"reality\" to the extent that the reader is kept guessing as to\nwhat is a real event and what is a death dream; or a dream within a\ndaydream in the real world. Even among Wolfe books it is difficult to\ndescribe to someone the wonders of PEACE, but let's not let that stop us \nfrom trying.\n\n=Talon=\ndouge at nti.com\n\nNutria,\n\n\tSince there is no naming convention for NEW SUN it would be \neasier to retain our Vironeese names. It is in the same universe as Urth, \nor maybe we can't even agree on that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-04-16T14:45:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) let it be, let it be", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:50 AM 4/16/97 -0000, you wrote:\n\nOK, TBoTNS was a *wonderful* book, but I can't help feeling that, with \nMantis' excellent Lexicon, and all of the time and discussion which has \nrevolved about it, it's being hashed to death. Why do we all continue to \nread Wolfe's books, the same book several times? Because each time we \nfind another question, or the answer to a previous mystery. That's what \nmakes it interesting. I, for one, would like to see a few mysteries \nremain in TBotNS. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI submit that lots of mysteries remain, because Wolfe is not through with\nSeverian. We clearly have not arrived at the end of his life. Wolfe says\ntht Severian is on a search for True Love, who is God Himself. (See my\ninterview on Duggan's website). The three symbols on Severian's grave are\nrose, ship, and fountain. The rose is not only a labyrinth (see Borges and\nEco), but the symbol of the Lover (since men and women are labyrinths,\nincomprehensible to one another). The first 4-volume set deals with the\nclaw of the rose (and the coin of Vodalus, which sets things in motion, but\nit not on the tomb). Politics is the theme. The next volume with the ship\n(Church), and possibly the fountain (life). Good works (charity) seems to\nbe the theme. But I predict a future volume or set of volumes to deal more\nwith the rose. BTW, I've never asked Wolfe if he plans more for Severian,\nbut I'm pretty sure he does. \n\nNutria (Jim Jordan)" } ] } ] }