{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/814", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 814, "subject": "Severian's reticence", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-06-16T15:07:30+00:00", "last": "1998-06-17T14:24:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-06-16T15:07:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's reticence", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of Severian's quirks as a narrator, and one which makes it quite\ndifficult to get a grasp of his character, is his sometimes withholding an\nimportant fact about a situation until long after he has seemingly\nfinished narrating that situation. The most prominent example is his not\nrevealing that he and Thecla had been lovers until long after Thecla has\nbreathed her last. (I am ashamed to say that I completely missed this\nin my earlier reading of BotNS.) There are a couple of other important\nexamples, also concerned with Severian's love life.\n\n1) In Sword, ch. 25, very near the beginning, Severian discloses that\nDorcas had had strong feelings for Jolenta and had been very depressed at\nher death, that he believes that Dorcas and Jolenta had engaged in \"sexual\nplay\" at some time, and that he had been jealous of Dorcas's feeling for\nJolenta, though not, he claims, sexually. I don't think that\nany of this had been mentioned at the time it happened: certainly not\nDorcas's depression at Jolenta's death, and to my recollection no hint of\nany relationship between Dorcas and Jolenta beyond Dorcas's natural\ngoodness and compassion on the one side and Jolenta's contempt on the\nother.\n\n2) My other example I'm less sure of. In Citadel, ch. 2, Severian loses\nhimself in his memories, and \"Dorcas's voice whispered in my ears:\n'Sitting in a window ... trays and a rood. What will you do, summon up\nsome Erinys to destroy me?\" The first of these sentences is close to\nwhat are almost the first words Dorcas speaks in the text (though not\nidentical; another can of worms). The second I was unable to find.\nSeverian's thoughts immediately following suggest that this sentence was\nspoken to Severian, and its juxtaposition with the first sentence suggests\nthat it may have come near the end of their last conversation, in which\ncase their parting was stormier than Severian let on at the time. Or it\nmay have had something to do with Severian's jealousy, discussed above.\n\nHaving noted this recurring pattern, I have some questions:\n\n1) Are there any other examples I've missed? (One may be his disclosure\nlate in the book of the very high mortality rate among the apprentices,\nbut I don't remember if Severian had mentioned this at the time.)\n\n2) What does this quirk tell us about Severian? Other quirks in his\nnarration have been explained by his allegedly perfect memory, but I don't\nsee how that would account for this.\n\n3) What explains, in particular, his suppression of the sexual\nrelationship between himself and Thecla? (Severian's motives for the\nother two omissions are more obvious.) I can think of two, not\nnecessarily exclusive, possibilities. Severian, as we know, has a rather\nunhealthy attitude towards women. He may not have wanted to contaminate\nthe \"purity\" of his relationship with Thecla by admitting it had a sexual\ncomponent. Or: Severian was ashamed enough of having \"betrayed his guild\"\nby giving Thecla a knife, but he had to narrate it because it was crucial\nto his story. He may have wanted to keep quiet about his earlier\n\"betrayal\" in having sex with Thecla against Master Gurloes' strict\norders.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ifh.de" }, "date": "1998-06-17T12:47:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's reticence", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "adam louis stephanides wrote:\n2) What does this quirk tell us about Severian? Other quirks in his\nnarration have been explained by his allegedly perfect memory, but I don't\nsee how that would account for this.\n\n3) What explains, in particular, his suppression of the sexual\nrelationship between himself and Thecla?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is certainly a fascinating question. I would hazard that in the\ncases of Dorcas and Thecla it shows Severian has a mental quirk of\npigeonholing people, and particularly women. So, as you say, he likes\nto think of his relationship with Thecla as entirely pure, and that\nwith Dorcas as entirely loving, and writes the narrative in this\nfashion. (Maybe the Chekhov's Gun principle would say, if a character\nhas a perfect memory you expect them to abuse it by the end of volume\nIV.)\n\nWhere he admits to feeling strong sexual desire (Agia, the undine on\nthe sandbar) it sometimes causes associated negative feelings, though\nI can't remember well enough to say how Jolenta fits into this.\nThere's probably a lot of pop psychology to get out of all this ---\nblah blah repressed childhood blah blah substitute mother figures blah\nblah need for understanding blah blah vell, severian's just zis guy,\nyou know? --- but before I fall into the deep end I'll just point out\nthe connection with Silk, his feelings towards sex described on the\nairship and his selective view of (damn, I can't remember her name now\nand the book's across town, but you know who I mean, the one with the\ncatachrest), as described, rather startingly, by Horn at the end of\nExodus. (So, you ignore her bad points, do you? Vell, zis is\ncertainly very interesting behaviour for a Calde.)\n\npws" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Neal Smith", "address": "nsmith at micro.ti.com" }, "date": "1998-06-17T14:24:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's reticence", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think that in spite of Severian's continuing assurance\nthat he has perfect recall, that he might as well not have it.\nHe intentionally omits enough information in the account\nthat it is almost as if a nearly identical character who does not\nhave perfect recall has been substituted, and occasionally remembers\nand adds details at a leter time. (Perhaps Severian does not have\nperfect memory - but has forgotten that fact. No, just joking.)\n\n\tAnyway, I can see on the part of the author the need to do\nthis to maintain suspense, and a few mysteries, but why would \nSeverian leave these things out in general? A few of the instances\nprobably have unique reasons: for instance, Adam's comment about\nSeverian hiding his tryst with Thecla to avoid admitting another\nbetrayal of his guild is dead on. In general, though, I think that\nit is simply a matter of style: Severian tends to include details\nonly when they directly affected the *actions* that he saw, or took,\nand leaves out his emotions, what he considers trivia, and side\nissues, no matter how interested we readers may be in some of these\nother details. For example, the conversation with Dorcas that Adam\nmentioned: in the first part, he narrates enough to show how she\nleft one way, he another, and enough reasons. Later, he adds the\nrest, when it is relevant to what he is doing at the time - being\nlost in his memory. \n\nNeal Smith" } ] } ] }