{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/834",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 834,
    "subject": "more on abos",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1998-06-19T15:58:10+00:00",
    "last": "1998-06-19T15:58:10+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0014-0057@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Alice Turner",
        "address": "al at smtp.emailserv.com"
      },
      "date": "1998-06-19T15:58:10+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) more on abos",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Neal,"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I had mentioned in passing the addictive substances that the\nShadow Children used in \"A Story\", in response to a post of Alga's.\nLater, this made me think: how much significance should we attach to\nthis substance?  I seem to remember a passage, perhaps the same one,\nwhere use of the drug is linked to not being able to use tools.  (I'm\nnot completely certain of this, not having the book in front of me\nat the moment).\n\nExploring this, would this indicate that the factors causing\nthe abos to not be able to use tools are more environmental?  Perhaps\nthe abos are capable of using tools, if they can recover sufficiently,\nbut the \"humans\" (non-abos?) aren't used to seeing them that way.  Is\nthis related to Roy T. being a drunkard?  Is it stated that he drinks,\nor that he's intoxicated - possibly on something else?  (I think it is\nstated he drinks, but I'm going to have to go back and look now).\n\nThe reason this takes on any significance, is that most of\nthe arguments for or against abos or half-abos still being around, or\nnot, seem to focus on just how much tool use some of the characters\ndemonstrate."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I think the tool use is important because (1) in Marsch's interviews it is\nbrought up again and again (2) it's a kind of clue for us supplied by Wolfe.\nAs for the \"substance abuse\"--well, according to \"A Story,\" and as Mr.\nBroski has neatly outlined, there are three kinds of abos, the hill people\n(VRT and mom are pretty definitely hill people, as is Sandwalker), the\nmarshmen, who must be physically nearly identical to them as they adopt\nEastwind, the twin, and the physically dissimilar, much spookier, Shadow\nChildren. It is only the last, I believe, who smoke. And yes, RT drinks.\n\nAdam,"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I'm morally certain [\"A Story] was written by V.R.T. (See below on the\n\"amalgam.\")\nAs you and others have pointed out, Marsch is far too insensitive,\nespecially regarding the Annese, to write anything like it.  The only\nproblem is that I recall reading an interview with Wolfe in which he says\nMarsch wrote it.  I don't remember where but I remember him saying this\ndistinctly, because I already thought at the time that V.R.T. wrote \"A\nStory.\"  Maybe Wolfe meant only that the person calling himself Marsch\nwrote V.R.T.  Or maybe he'd briefly forgotten that V.R.T. wrote \"A Story.\"\nIf all other lines of defense failed, I would have to say that while Wolfe\nmay have meant to have Marsch write \"A Story,\" in the story Wolfe wrote\nV.R.T. wrote \"A Story.\"  (I keep meaning to read the famous essay be\nWimsatt and somebody attacking the \"intentional fallacy.\")"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I'm inclined to think that too, was keeping the options open."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I hadn't seen this thoery of V.R.T. merging with Marsch before, but I have\nto stick to my belief that V.R.T. is just impersonating Marsch in the\nordinary way, perhaps aided by his shape-shifting abilities if he has\nthem.  I don't find it implausible that he learned all his anthropology\nfrom books on Ste. Anne and St. Croix; he had three years in the\nwilderness to study Marsch's books, and could read more in the libraries.\nIn particular, his knowledge of \"anthropological relaxation,\" which\nanother poster had cited, could have been picked up in the local library\nafter he's realized what the Wolfes are.  His learning doesn't have to be\nvery deep.  Who does he have to convince?  A dilettante who may have\nceased following the literature years ago, some moderately-informed laymen\nwho have access to the same sources he does, and the anthropological\nfaculties on the sisterworlds, which are bad (this is by V.R.T.'s own\ntestimony, but there's no reason to doubt it) and are no doubt already\npredisposed to be impressed by the visiting professor from Earth.   And\nIIRC it was never claimed that Annese couldn't intellectually comprehend\nmachines and tools, just that they couldn't make or use them.\n\nWhat convinces me that V.R.T. has not merged with Marsch, aside from the\nlack of any indication that any Annese have this ability, is the drastic\nchange in personality evident between Marsch's real journal entries and\nV.R.T.'s entries.  It's so great that, with the benefit of hindsight, it's\nhard to see how anyone could have doubted that V.R.T. replace Marsch."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Yes, that is a good and convincing argument. But still, but still, there is\nthat certainty among the Ste. Anne interviewees that the abos were\n\"man-shaped animals,\" there is the evidence of \"A Story,\" there is JVM/ART's\nown writing from his cell that seem to indicate something more. Perhaps, as\nsomeone earlier indicated, we are meant never to know for sure.\n\nAnd see below from Wiliam Ansley:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I am \"another poster\". I agree that VRT could have learned enough\nanthropology from books so he could impersonate Marsch under the conditions\nhe found himself. But I find it impossible to accept that he could just\nlook at #5 and guess he's a clone by means of knowledge picked up this way.\nIt seems to me we run into a chicken and egg problem here. How could he\nfigure out the Wolfes are clones without knowing about anthropological\nrelaxation (AR) very well. And why would he bone up on AR unless he knew\nthe Wolfes were clones. Of course he could have some other source of\nknowledge about the Wolfes that we don't know about as you almost seem to\nimply, but, from the text, this seems unlikely and having to rely on events\ntotally unsupported by the text is unsatisfying, at best.\n\n5HC is full of people making guesses (spinning theories, telling \"A Story\",\netc.) most of them seemingly wild. We know that in two cases at least (VRT\nas Marsch guessing that #5 is a clone and #5 guessing that Marsch is an\nabo) the guesses are true. I am beginning to think that we are supposed to\naccept that these are just guesses that do happen to be true. Perhaps there\nis supposed to be some \"higher order\" reason for this, but the outcome is\nthat the guesses are right. I would like to build a grand theory on the\nidea that ALL the guesses in 5HC are true. Its too bad the they are so\ncontradictory."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "That's why we're worrying at them so. Sigh. I don't like \"guesses\" and\n\"coincidences\" in fiction. I do like sly clues."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "A *lot* has been said about Aunt Jeannine's withered legs. Well, where else\ndo we find withered legs in 5HC?\n\n------------------\nIn the dark Sandwalker climbed, climbed on hands and feet like a beast,\nholding the feign-pheasant in his teeth until his fingers found the\npriest's feet and his hands the withered legs. [p. 80, Scribners]\n------------------\n\nWe have Sandwalker (an abo, maybe) going on a quest for reasons that are\nnot clear (it seems that he is sent to the priest because of his dreams) to\na priest with withered legs who apparently is dead. What good it is\nsupposed to do is also unclear; Sandwalker seems to expect advice or\ncouncil from the priests ghost. The priest lives in a cave, which is hard\nto find unless you have directions.\n\nWe have VRT as Marsch (an abo, probably?) going on quest for reasons that\nare not clear? (Wouldn't you think he'd want to avoid other anthropologists\nwho might see through his charade, even if he found the scholars from the\nlocal universities easy to fool?) to a doctor of anthropology with withered\nlegs, who isn't real (well is using a false name, anyway). This makes her\nhard to find. And what do Phaedria's friends (\"the kids\") call the house\nwhere Aunt Jeannine lives? The Cave!"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I noticed the dead priest too, but left it out because I couldn't find a\nscintilla of connection with Aunt J. Very ingenious! (If somewhat wierd.)\n\nFinally, thank you, Pedro Jorge, for the Borges/Ultan quote.\n\n-alga-"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}