{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/843", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 843, "subject": "Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "messages": 6, "voices": 6, "first": "1998-06-22T14:11:23+00:00", "last": "1998-06-25T10:35:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Moar", "address": "jmoar at zetnet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-06-22T14:11:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, adam louis stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is it certain, for instance, in the\nfirst four books that Severian himself will one day become the\nConciliator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would say there is no hint in the first four books that Severian\nwas/will become the Conciliator. But I could be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course I'm citation-less here, but I think that you are wrong. IIRC,\nthere are at least a few clues vaguely scattered throughout BotNS that\nSeverian maybe, just maybe is the Conciliator. The most obvious is the\nfact that the we discover that his powers don't come from the Claw of the\nConciliator but from himself. These powers (healing people) are the same\nas those attributed to the Conciliator. In addition, the Conciliator is\nalso referred to as the New Sun. We are certainly led to believe that\nSeverian will bring the New Sun, which is another link." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a thought about how the titles of tBotNS volumes might imply that \nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nNow, it is obvious that Severian is a torturer, a lictor and an autarch - \neach of which appears as the second noun of the title on one of the \nvolumes. So, this might suggest that this is part of the title format. \nBut, in this case, _Claw_ doesn't fit.\n\nHowever, if Severian is the Conciliator, then there is a consistent \npattern of titles. Furthermore, it might mean he _always has been_ the \nConciliator (since he performs the functions of the title in the other \nbooks, but is no more the Conciliator in _Claw_ than anywhere else before \n_Urth_)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there may be other clues but I couldn't say off hand.\n\nAnd of course, all this is much more \"obvious\" (as much as anything by\nWolfe is obvious) after reading UotNS because you're suddenly looking for\nclues (and possibly finding ones that aren't really there).\n\n\n-Dave" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "James Moar\n\n\"...it represents for me all that monomaniacal fabric of argument, so\ntightly woven that not even the tiniest objection or spark of light can\nescape its net, in which human minds become enmeshed whenever the\nsubject is one in which no appeal to fact is possible\" - _Sword_, Ch. 38" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-06-23T11:11:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 James Moar wrote:\nOn Fri, 19 Jun 1998, adam louis stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would say there is no hint in the first four books that Severian\nwas/will become the Conciliator. But I could be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a thought about how the titles of tBotNS volumes might imply that \nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nNow, it is obvious that Severian is a torturer, a lictor and an autarch - \neach of which appears as the second noun of the title on one of the \nvolumes. So, this might suggest that this is part of the title format. \nBut, in this case, _Claw_ doesn't fit.\n\nHowever, if Severian is the Conciliator, then there is a consistent \npattern of titles. Furthermore, it might mean he _always has been_ the \nConciliator (since he performs the functions of the title in the other \nbooks, but is no more the Conciliator in _Claw_ than anywhere else before \n_Urth_)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brilliant! (And though it's not relevant to your broader point, the\npattern continues in _Urth_; Severian is the New Sun too. And there's\na pattern to the first parts of the titles: in the first book it's\nsomething completely insubstantial, and in the succeeding books they're\nlarger and larger objects.)\n\nSo I was wrong: in retrospect there are clearly clues in BotNS that\nSeverian is the Conciliator. I still suspect, though, that these clues\nwould not have been picked up for what they are in retrospect had _Urth_\nnot appeared. In BotNS there is always a distinction made between the\nConciliator, who will *be* the New Sun, and Severian who will *bring* the\nNew Sun. Before _Urth_ these two functions don't even appear compatible;\nwhat sense could we make from BotNS alone of the idea of Severian\nundergoing a trial to determine whether he was the Conciliator? And these\nconsiderations are even more applicable to the more ambiguous clues\ncited by Dave and by Don Parmenter.\n\nBut here we're faced with the impossible task of determining how the\ndiscussion of BotNS would have developed after fifteen years if _Urth_ had\nnever appeared.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-06-24T01:57:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I was wrong: in retrospect there are clearly clues in BotNS that\nSeverian is the Conciliator. I still suspect, though, that these clues\nwould not have been picked up for what they are in retrospect had _Urth_\nnot appeared. In BotNS there is always a distinction made between the\nConciliator, who will *be* the New Sun, and Severian who will *bring* the\nNew Sun. Before _Urth_ these two functions don't even appear compatible;\nwhat sense could we make from BotNS alone of the idea of Severian\nundergoing a trial to determine whether he was the Conciliator? And these\nconsiderations are even more applicable to the more ambiguous clues\ncited by Dave and by Don Parmenter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to throw my two cents in on this one, I think that clues are strewn\nabout TBOTNS for all of the major revelations of UOTNS. While I can't offer\nproof for any particular case, I can say that I did not read UOTNS for some\nmonths after completing the tetralogy, and I went into Urth assuming, among\nother things, that Severian was in fact the Conciliator. The most obvious\nclue to this--as has already been noted--is the title of the second book.\n\nIn _Castle of the Otter_ (p. 297 of _Castle of Days_) discussing contract\nnegotiations for The Book, Wolfe says:\n\n \"I responded with [snip] the suggestion that the word _title_ be struck\nfrom a list of things to be controlled by the publisher.\"\n\nIt is obvious that the titles held some meaning greater than just using big\nwords and sounding good. The symmetry of the titles is consistent\nthroughout the series, not only in the four individual volumes, but also in\nthe title of the tetralogy (it is, after all, Severian's Book), and also in\n_Urth of the New Sun_\n\nAs for clues to other revelations made in URTH, I'm sure they are there even\nif I can't find any at the moment. But considering all the detective work\nthis group has done, it seems like a worthy case to delve into.\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Coleman", "address": "marc.coleman at mwcia.org" }, "date": "1998-06-24T08:58:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there may be other clues but I couldn't say off hand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the wine in the water ewer, which is repeatedly mentioned in UotNS,\nis a good clue that Sev is the Conciliator. He returns to the same town,\nSaltus, as Conciliator. My first post! marc" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Redelfs", "address": "jredelfs at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1998-06-25T07:37:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From urth-errors at lists.best.com Tue Jun 23 23:06:09 1998\nReceived: (from daemon@localhost) by lists1.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "id XAA17212 for urth-errors at lists.best.com; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:01:18 \n-0700 (PDT)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message-Id: <199806240601.XAA17212 at lists1.best.com>\nFrom: \"Jason Voegele\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names\nDate: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:57:49 -0400\nBestServHost: lists.best.com\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\ncharset=\"us-ascii\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\nSender: urth-errors at lists.best.com\nErrors-To: urth-errors at lists.best.com\nReply-To: urth at lists.best.com\nTo: urth at lists.best.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm new to the list and this is my first message. \nIt was pretty clear to about halfway through\nthe BotNS that Severian was the Conciliator.\nIt's just seems eminently obvious." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-06-25T10:35:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Jack Redelfs wrote:\nI'm new to the list and this is my first message. \nIt was pretty clear to about halfway through\nthe BotNS that Severian was the Conciliator.\nIt's just seems eminently obvious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what sense? Did you feel Severian was, unknown to himself, the\n\"reincarnation\" of the Conciliator, or did you guess that he would end up\ntime travelling and becoming the Conciliator, or did you imagine it some\nother way? \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }