Subject: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names

From: John Moar <jmoar at zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:11:23 +0000

>
>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, adam louis stephanides wrote:
>
>> > Is it certain, for instance, in the
>> > first four books that Severian himself will one day become the
>> > Conciliator?
>> 
>> I would say there is no hint in the first four books that Severian
>> was/will become the Conciliator.  But I could be wrong.
>
>Of course I'm citation-less here, but I think that you are wrong.  IIRC,
>there are at least a few clues vaguely scattered throughout BotNS that
>Severian maybe, just maybe is the Conciliator.  The most obvious is the
>fact that the we discover that his powers don't come from the Claw of the
>Conciliator but from himself.  These powers (healing people) are the same
>as those attributed to the Conciliator.  In addition, the Conciliator is
>also referred to as the New Sun.  We are certainly led to believe that
>Severian will bring the New Sun, which is another link.

Just a thought about how the titles of tBotNS volumes might imply that 
Severian is the Conciliator.

Now, it is obvious that Severian is a torturer, a lictor and an autarch - 
each of which appears as the second noun of the title on one of the 
volumes. So, this might suggest that this is part of the title format. 
But, in this case, _Claw_ doesn't fit.

However, if Severian is the Conciliator, then there is a consistent 
pattern of titles. Furthermore, it might mean he _always has been_ the 
Conciliator (since he performs the functions of the title in the other 
books, but is no more the Conciliator in _Claw_ than anywhere else before 
_Urth_)

>I think there may be other clues but I couldn't say off hand.
>
>And of course, all this is much more "obvious" (as much as anything by
>Wolfe is obvious) after reading UotNS because you're suddenly looking for
>clues (and possibly finding ones that aren't really there).
>
>
>-Dave

--
James Moar

"...it represents for me all that monomaniacal fabric of argument, so
tightly woven that not even the tiniest objection or spark of light can
escape its net, in which human minds become enmeshed whenever the
subject is one in which no appeal to fact is possible" - _Sword_, Ch. 38

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:11:58 +0000

> books, but is no more the Conciliator in _Claw_ than anywhere else before 

Brilliant!  (And though it's not relevant to your broader point, the
pattern continues in _Urth_; Severian is the New Sun too.  And there's
a pattern to the first parts of the titles: in the first book it's
something completely insubstantial, and in the succeeding books they're
larger and larger objects.)

So I was wrong: in retrospect there are clearly clues in BotNS that
Severian is the Conciliator.  I still suspect, though, that these clues
would not have been picked up for what they are in retrospect had _Urth_
not appeared.  In BotNS there is always a distinction made between the
Conciliator, who will *be* the New Sun, and Severian who will *bring* the
New Sun.  Before _Urth_ these two functions don't even appear compatible;
what sense could we make from BotNS alone of the idea of Severian
undergoing a trial to determine whether he was the Conciliator?  And these
considerations are even more applicable to the more ambiguous clues
cited by Dave and by Don Parmenter.

But here we're faced with the impossible task of determining how the
discussion of BotNS would have developed after fifteen years if _Urth_ had
never appeared.

--Adam

---

From: Jason Voegele <voegele.6 at osu.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:57:49 +0000

>cited by Dave and by Don Parmenter.

Just to throw my two cents in on this one, I think that clues are strewn
about TBOTNS for all of the major revelations of UOTNS.  While I can't offer
proof for any particular case, I can say that I did not read UOTNS for some
months after completing the tetralogy, and I went into Urth assuming, among
other things, that Severian was in fact the Conciliator.  The most obvious
clue to this--as has already been noted--is the title of the second book.

In _Castle of the Otter_ (p. 297 of _Castle of Days_) discussing contract
negotiations for The Book, Wolfe says:

    "I responded with [snip] the suggestion that the word _title_ be struck
from a list of things to be controlled by the publisher."

It is obvious that the titles held some meaning greater than just using big
words and sounding good.  The symmetry of the titles is consistent
throughout the series, not only in the four individual volumes, but also in
the title of the tetralogy (it is, after all, Severian's Book), and also in
_Urth of the New Sun_

As for clues to other revelations made in URTH, I'm sure they are there even
if I can't find any at the moment.  But considering all the detective work
this group has done, it seems like a worthy case to delve into.

Jason Voegele

---

From: Marc Coleman <marc.coleman at mwcia.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:58:20 +0000

>>I think there may be other clues but I couldn't say off hand.
I think the wine in the water ewer, which is repeatedly mentioned in UotNS,
is a good clue that Sev is the Conciliator.  He returns to the same town,
Saltus, as Conciliator.  My first post!   marc

---

From: Jack Redelfs <jredelfs at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:37:32 +0000

>>From urth-errors at lists.best.com Tue Jun 23 23:06:09 1998
>Received: (from daemon@localhost) by lists1.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) 
id XAA17212 for urth-errors at lists.best.com; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:01:18 
-0700 (PDT)
>Message-Id: <199806240601.XAA17212 at lists1.best.com>
>From: "Jason Voegele" <voegele.6 at osu.edu>
>Subject: Re: (urth) Hints about Conciliator from volume names
>Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:57:49 -0400
>BestServHost: lists.best.com
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: urth-errors at lists.best.com
>Errors-To: urth-errors at lists.best.com
>Reply-To: urth at lists.best.com
>To: urth at lists.best.com

I'm new to the list and this is my first message. 
It was pretty clear to about halfway through
the BotNS that Severian was the Conciliator.
It's just seems eminently obvious.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:35:58 +0000

> It's just seems eminently obvious.

In what sense?  Did you feel Severian was, unknown to himself, the
"reincarnation" of the Conciliator, or did you guess that he would end up
time travelling and becoming the Conciliator, or did you imagine it some
other way? 

-Rostrum