{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/875", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 875, "subject": "Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors)", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-06-30T13:53:22+00:00", "last": "1998-07-01T13:10:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-06-30T13:53:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forward this post from rec.arts.sf.written with Mr. Gilbert's\npermission. I'd be interested to hear what others think of the way Wolfe\nwrites about women and sex roles, but I don't have much myself to offer on\nthe subject. Maybe this will stir something up.\n\n---------- Forwarded message ----------\nDate: 28 Jun 1998 23:41:21 -0400\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert \nNewsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written\nSubject: Re: There Are Doors (was Re: Gene Wolfe -- Reccomendations?)\n\nThere are spoilers for _There Are Doors_ in the later part of this post.\nPeople who have read some Wolfe but not TAD could read about halfway\nbefore stopping. There's spoiler space. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nOn 23 Jun 1998, P Nielsen Hayden wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In <6mojob$692 at shell1.interlog.com> zvi at interlog.com (Zvi Gilbert) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[..deleted...] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I entirely agree with you about how \"there's something about the sexual\nthemes and gender roles that I strongly disagree with, but that is carefully\nworked out and internally consistent.\" A fascinating and underrated book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So can either of you articulate what that \"something\" is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I just reread _There Are Doors_ over\nthe past two days so it's fresh in my mind.\n\nSamuel R. Delany writes in _The Straits of Messina_ (a book of critical\npieces and discussions, mostly on his own work): \n\n There's a prevailing theory that society, in some mysterious\n way, is and will always be a mirror of some mysteriously eternal\n sex act, i.e., standard missionary position. (p.39)\n\n ...(which somehow involves vast amounts of male aggression \n inchoately coupled with total female passivity), and read all\n fictional accounts of sex-and/or-society as accurate, relevant,\n and charged with value as they constitute themselves under the\n shadow of this model. (p.40)\n\n(This discussion is part of a larger argument about _DHALGREN_ and its\ncritical reception.) \n\nDelany then goes on to list writes as diverse as Lawrence, Ellison, and\nRoth whose work falls under that rubric. \n\nTo that list I would add Wolfe. In all of the Wolfe that I've read, there\nis an absolute split between male and female roles, male and female\nsexuality, and male and female values that is as wide as anything I've\never seen in fiction. \n\nFor example, this is true of Severian/Thecla, /Dorcas, /etc. in _The Book\nof the New Sun_: men and women (or, more accurately, perhaps, male and\nfemale roles) are very different in that book, not to mention that from\nthe perspective of Severian, all sorts of relations between men and women\nare coloured by the 'torturer-tortured' model that is established for us. \nOther clear examples in Wolfe's writing would include 'Forlesen', and _The\nBook of the Long Sun_, with its pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.\n\n_There Are Doors_ is another book of that sort, and, since sexuality and\nthe relationship between men and women is one of the major themes of the\nbook, the separation and tension between male and female experience and\nroles is foregrounded. (More below.)\n\n[I don't believe in this male-female idealized sex act model myself -- and\nthat's what (in part) I'm reacting to in the comment of mine that Patrick\nquotes above. In the same essay in _The Straits of Messina_, Delany goes\non to discuss his own model of sexuality, where this internalized\nmale/female idealization is nothing but a social model -- which, when\ninternalized, does influence sexual behaviour -- but that vastly\ndiminishes the spectrum of (possible or pleasurable) sex acts when all sex\nacts, whether between men and men, women and women, women and men, or\nthose who are differently gendered, are seen through the lens of the\nultimate Male-Female act.]\n\nSPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS. \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nIn _There Are Doors_, the protagonist (Green) starts on his search for\nLara -- whom we later find out is (one manifestation of) the Goddess. Lara\nresides in a different world, reachable through the 'Doors' of the title,\nthat Green calls 'There'. \n\n'There', relationships with men and women are vastly different than our\nworld (or are they?), because 'There', men die after having sex. The\nsociety of 'There' is different from ours, but in a subtle way, and one of\nthe great delights of reading Wolfe is finding out just how different, and\nwhy, and putting the pieces together for oneself.\n\nBecause sexuality and the loneliness of a withdrawn, middle-aged man is\nthe central theme of the book, attitudes towards sex in the book are\nforegrounded. (But this model of sex is found in all of Wolfe's fiction.)\n\nThe distortions of male-female relationships created by the fact that men\ndie after sex 'There' distort relationships MORE strongly in the direction\nof male-female separation and difference, of course. However, as in all\nfantasy, the fantasy world can be read as a distortion of the 'real' world\n-- or in this case, in a sophisticated Wolfeian way, the world that has\nonly the authorial distortions of realism ('Cee-One', it's called in the\nnovel). \n\nThere is internal support in (Green's perception of) 'Cee-One' for a\nsimilar if less absolute male/female split (and not just the various\nmanifestations of the goddess in Green's life, either) in various\ncomments: 'Men were looking for love, women were looking for\nhusbands...'(can't remember the page, sorry) 'The bucktoothed woman\nfrowned, putting her hands together fingertip to fingertip like a man.\n(p.5)' [like a man?]...\n \nBecause the male/female difference that Wolfe delineates both 'There' and\nin 'Cee-One' are so strong, so (IMHO) incorrect, but also so internally\nconsistent, clear, and rich, that is the main source of my\nuncomfortableness and fascination with _There Are Doors_. \n\nI'll stop there, but that's the gist of my argument. \n\nPart of what keeps me reading and re-reading Wolfe's fiction is the fact\nthat I do disagree with him so strongly about religious issues (including\nthe Catholicism that informs his books), social issues, and societal\nissues -- but he makes quite a case in terms of the consistency of his\nviews and the power of his writing. \n\n--Zvi\nzvi at interlog.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Wesley Parsons", "address": "wrp at adorno.com" }, "date": "1998-06-30T15:31:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors) -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of Wolfe's points indeed seems to be that biology not culture \ndetermines sex roles. You change the biology, and you flip the sex roles.\nMale post-coital demise changes who is in charge (the President is\nfemale), who pursues whom (the women compete for attention and the\nmen are choosy), and who is more emotional or spontaneous (men have\nto be very emotionally committed, or irresponsible, to have sex).\n\nOne way of looking at the difference Wolfe has created between the two\nworlds is this: In our world the burden of procreation falls mainly on\nwomen, who carry and nurse the child. In the other world, the burden\nfalls even harder on men, who die. This burden is a cost that affects\ndifferentially the behavior of the two sexes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Michael Straight 06/30/98 01:53pm >>>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forward this post from rec.arts.sf.written with Mr. Gilbert's\npermission. I'd be interested to hear what others think of the way Wolfe\nwrites about women and sex roles, but I don't have much myself to offer\non\nthe subject. Maybe this will stir something up.\n\n---------- Forwarded message ----------\nDate: 28 Jun 1998 23:41:21 -0400\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert \nNewsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written\nSubject: Re: There Are Doors (was Re: Gene Wolfe --\nReccomendations?)\n\nThere are spoilers for _There Are Doors_ in the later part of this post.\nPeople who have read some Wolfe but not TAD could read about halfway\nbefore stopping. There's spoiler space. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nOn 23 Jun 1998, P Nielsen Hayden wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In <6mojob$692 at shell1.interlog.com> zvi at interlog.com (Zvi Gilbert)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[..deleted...] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I entirely agree with you about how \"there's something about the\nsexual\nthemes and gender roles that I strongly disagree with, but that is\ncarefully\nworked out and internally consistent.\" A fascinating and underrated\nbook." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So can either of you articulate what that \"something\" is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I just reread _There Are Doors_ over\nthe past two days so it's fresh in my mind.\n\nSamuel R. Delany writes in _The Straits of Messina_ (a book of critical\npieces and discussions, mostly on his own work): \n\n There's a prevailing theory that society, in some mysterious\n way, is and will always be a mirror of some mysteriously eternal\n sex act, i.e., standard missionary position. (p.39)\n\n ...(which somehow involves vast amounts of male aggression \n inchoately coupled with total female passivity), and read all\n fictional accounts of sex-and/or-society as accurate, relevant,\n and charged with value as they constitute themselves under the\n shadow of this model. (p.40)\n\n(This discussion is part of a larger argument about _DHALGREN_ and its\ncritical reception.) \n\nDelany then goes on to list writes as diverse as Lawrence, Ellison, and\nRoth whose work falls under that rubric. \n\nTo that list I would add Wolfe. In all of the Wolfe that I've read, there\nis an absolute split between male and female roles, male and female\nsexuality, and male and female values that is as wide as anything I've\never seen in fiction. \n\nFor example, this is true of Severian/Thecla, /Dorcas, /etc. in _The Book\nof the New Sun_: men and women (or, more accurately, perhaps, male\nand\nfemale roles) are very different in that book, not to mention that from\nthe perspective of Severian, all sorts of relations between men and\nwomen\nare coloured by the 'torturer-tortured' model that is established for us. \nOther clear examples in Wolfe's writing would include 'Forlesen', and\n_The\nBook of the Long Sun_, with its pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.\n\n_There Are Doors_ is another book of that sort, and, since sexuality and\nthe relationship between men and women is one of the major themes of\nthe\nbook, the separation and tension between male and female experience\nand\nroles is foregrounded. (More below.)\n\n[I don't believe in this male-female idealized sex act model myself -- and\nthat's what (in part) I'm reacting to in the comment of mine that Patrick\nquotes above. In the same essay in _The Straits of Messina_, Delany\ngoes\non to discuss his own model of sexuality, where this internalized\nmale/female idealization is nothing but a social model -- which, when\ninternalized, does influence sexual behaviour -- but that vastly\ndiminishes the spectrum of (possible or pleasurable) sex acts when all\nsex\nacts, whether between men and men, women and women, women and\nmen, or\nthose who are differently gendered, are seen through the lens of the\nultimate Male-Female act.]\n\nSPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS. \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nIn _There Are Doors_, the protagonist (Green) starts on his search for\nLara -- whom we later find out is (one manifestation of) the Goddess.\nLara\nresides in a different world, reachable through the 'Doors' of the title,\nthat Green calls 'There'. \n\n'There', relationships with men and women are vastly different than our\nworld (or are they?), because 'There', men die after having sex. The\nsociety of 'There' is different from ours, but in a subtle way, and one of\nthe great delights of reading Wolfe is finding out just how different, and\nwhy, and putting the pieces together for oneself.\n\nBecause sexuality and the loneliness of a withdrawn, middle-aged man is\nthe central theme of the book, attitudes towards sex in the book are\nforegrounded. (But this model of sex is found in all of Wolfe's fiction.)\n\nThe distortions of male-female relationships created by the fact that men\ndie after sex 'There' distort relationships MORE strongly in the direction\nof male-female separation and difference, of course. However, as in all\nfantasy, the fantasy world can be read as a distortion of the 'real' world\n-- or in this case, in a sophisticated Wolfeian way, the world that has\nonly the authorial distortions of realism ('Cee-One', it's called in the\nnovel). \n\nThere is internal support in (Green's perception of) 'Cee-One' for a\nsimilar if less absolute male/female split (and not just the various\nmanifestations of the goddess in Green's life, either) in various\ncomments: 'Men were looking for love, women were looking for\nhusbands...'(can't remember the page, sorry) 'The bucktoothed woman\nfrowned, putting her hands together fingertip to fingertip like a man.\n(p.5)' [like a man?]...\n \nBecause the male/female difference that Wolfe delineates both 'There'\nand\nin 'Cee-One' are so strong, so (IMHO) incorrect, but also so internally\nconsistent, clear, and rich, that is the main source of my\nuncomfortableness and fascination with _There Are Doors_. \n\nI'll stop there, but that's the gist of my argument. \n\nPart of what keeps me reading and re-reading Wolfe's fiction is the fact\nthat I do disagree with him so strongly about religious issues (including\nthe Catholicism that informs his books), social issues, and societal\nissues -- but he makes quite a case in terms of the consistency of his\nviews and the power of his writing. \n\n--Zvi\nzvi at interlog.com\n\n\n\nother works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-06-30T16:27:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors) -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWhile I've been just plain too busy to participate lately, I do have some\ncontributions to make regarding male and female in TAD.\n\n\tWhile the modern view is that men and women are pretty much the same\nexcept for plumbing, the Christian view is that they are radically\ndifferent and complementary. That's Wolfe's view, and it definitely informs\neverything he writes. Theologically, the difference between men and women\nultimately reflects the difference between the Son and the Spirit, between\nthe Creator and His creation, and between Christ and the Church-Bride.\nWolfe has clearly put a great deal of thought into this, and it is in the\nbackground, occasionally the foreground, of his work.\n\tWhile there are various Doors between our world and \"There\" in TAD, the\nmost significant is the Italian Restaurant, which is of course the Roman\nCatholic Church. The Mama figure is the Church Herself, and her\nblack-dressed sober sons are priests. Wolfe's perspective is that\nChristianity is the fulfillment not only of the Hebrew revelation, but of\nall the best aspirations of all pre-Christian belief, and that the Church\ndraws all of that into herself. Thus, Mama encourages Mr. Green to pursue\nLara, an encouragement grounded in redemptive intent for both of them.\n\tI strongly suspect that the reason men die after intercourse in \"There\"\nhas something to do with Christ's death to bring life to His Bride. Wolfe\nbrings out many societal implications of this feature of \"There,\" of\ncourse, but I suspect many have more symbolic meanings than a first reading\nwould disclose.\n\tIn Christianity, masculinity is protological and feminity is\neschatological. Adam came first, but Eve comes last. Men initiate; women\nglorify and culminate. Christ comes to initiate the New Creation, which\ndevelops into a glorified Bride-Cosmos. Thus, as Paul insists in Ephesians,\nthe man must lay down his life for his bride. Men die; women inherit.\n\tThese kinds of distinctions are REALLY offensive to modern sensibilities,\nof course, but you aren't going to understand Wolfe very well without them.\n\tSince men and women are radically different -- different all the way down\nto the depth of the psyche, just as the Son and the Spirit are wholly\ndifferent yet one in God -- so the sins of men and women tend to be\ndifferent. Thus, in Wolfe there are bad men, and bad women, but they tend\nto be bad in different ways. Similarly with good men and good women.\n\tOf course, since God is also One, there is a commonality as well as a\nradical difference between men and women, and Wolfe is not blind to that\nfact. But what makes him \"strange\" to many readers is that he plays off the\ndifferences between men and women, and in our society one is not supposed\nto do that. One result is that Wolfe is thought of as a misogynist by some.\n\tPredictably, one aspect of being a bad man or woman is to usurp the role\nof the other sex. You cannot expect Wolfe to be sympathetic to\nhomosexuality or lesbianism. While it has been a while since I read TAD, I\nbelieve part of the structure is that Green is too passive, and Lara too\ndomineering. \n\tBeyond this, possibly the whole world of \"There\" is in some ways the\n\"modern world,\" where men are overly passive and women overly domineering.\nPerhaps one should read \"There\" as a social criticism of modern society.\nMen aren't fulfilling their roles, and women have taken them over. There\nis, after all, a lot of socio-political criticism in Wolfe, as in for\ninstance *Operation Ares* and \"Hour of Trust\" (in which Gene himself makes\nan appearance!).\n\tWell, these are just some thoughts, observations, and possibilities. Of\ncourse, readers who are appalled by these ideas can still enjoy the novel\nat other levels!\n\tJust a point of interest: Mr. North is modelled on Gordon Liddy, but the\nname \"North\" comes from Ollie North, who Wolfe thought at the time he wrote\nit was a lot like Liddy. He later changed his view of Ollie North, but the\nbook was already in print. (Information from a private conversation.)\n\nJust stirring the pot, I am still:\n\nJim Jordan (formerly Nutria)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-01T13:10:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors) -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jim Jordan wrote:\n\tWhile the modern view is that men and women are pretty much the same\nexcept for plumbing, the Christian view is that they are radically\ndifferent and complementary. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not the place for a big debate on this (I'd be happy to discuss it\nin private e-mail), but this needs some qualification. There are plenty\nof Christians who would not agree that the male/female differences you\ndescribe are \"the Christian view\"--including Christians committed to\northodoxy, not just the Bishop Spong types.\n\nI don't deny that the worldview you describe is quite possibly similar to\nWolfe's, however, which is really the only thing relevant to thread.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-07-01T12:35:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors) -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:10 PM 7/1/98 -0400, you wrote:\nOn Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jim Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tWhile the modern view is that men and women are pretty much the same\nexcept for plumbing, the Christian view is that they are radically\ndifferent and complementary. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not the place for a big debate on this (I'd be happy to discuss it\nin private e-mail), but this needs some qualification. There are plenty\nof Christians who would not agree that the male/female differences you\ndescribe are \"the Christian view\"--including Christians committed to\northodoxy, not just the Bishop Spong types.\n\nI don't deny that the worldview you describe is quite possibly similar to\nWolfe's, however, which is really the only thing relevant to thread." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tPoint taken and granted, though I think the overall \"tradition\" is pretty\nclose to what I set out, which outsetment of course was very brief and not\nnuanced. For instance: \"Why women be CAN not (not may not) be clergy?\nBecause the minister represents Christ to the Bride, so by design that is a\nmale role. Women cannot do it any more than men can menstruate.\" Now, such\nargument is called in question today, by \"conservative\" people as well as\n\"liberal\" ones, but it IS the tradition. And all I was trying to do was\ngive a thumbnail sketch of traditional thinking, since Wolfe is pretty\ntraditional, and, as you say, that's what is relevant here.\n\tNot trying to preempt valid theological discussion, which is for another\nforum. So, your point is taken.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }