Subject: (urth) Wolfe's Women (There Are Doors)

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:53:22 +0000

I forward this post from rec.arts.sf.written with Mr. Gilbert's
permission.  I'd be interested to hear what others think of the way Wolfe
writes about women and sex roles, but I don't have much myself to offer on
the subject.  Maybe this will stir something up.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 28 Jun 1998 23:41:21 -0400
From: Zvi Gilbert <zvi at interlog.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: There Are Doors (was Re: Gene Wolfe -- Reccomendations?)

There are spoilers for _There Are Doors_ in the later part of this post.
People who have read some Wolfe but not TAD could read about halfway
before stopping. There's spoiler space. 

Michael Straight  <straight at email.unc.edu> wrote:
>On 23 Jun 1998, P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>> In <6mojob$692 at shell1.interlog.com> zvi at interlog.com (Zvi Gilbert) writes:
>>>[..deleted...] 
>> I entirely agree with you about how "there's something about the sexual
>> themes and gender roles that I strongly disagree with, but that is carefully
>> worked out and internally consistent."  A fascinating and underrated book.
>So can either of you articulate what that "something" is?

Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I just reread _There Are Doors_ over
the past two days so it's fresh in my mind.

Samuel R. Delany writes in _The Straits of Messina_ (a book of critical
pieces and discussions, mostly on his own work): 

     There's a prevailing theory that society, in some mysterious
     way, is and will always be a mirror of some mysteriously eternal
     sex act, i.e., standard missionary position. (p.39)

     ...(which somehow involves vast amounts of male aggression 
     inchoately coupled with total female passivity), and read all
     fictional accounts of sex-and/or-society as accurate, relevant,
     and charged with value as they constitute themselves under the
     shadow of this model. (p.40)

(This discussion is part of a larger argument about _DHALGREN_ and its
critical reception.)  

Delany then goes on to list writes as diverse as Lawrence, Ellison, and
Roth whose work falls under that rubric. 

To that list I would add Wolfe. In all of the Wolfe that I've read, there
is an absolute split between male and female roles, male and female
sexuality, and male and female values that is as wide as anything I've
ever seen in fiction. 

For example, this is true of Severian/Thecla, /Dorcas, /etc. in _The Book
of the New Sun_: men and women (or, more accurately, perhaps, male and
female roles) are very different in that book, not to mention that from
the perspective of Severian, all sorts of relations between men and women
are coloured by the 'torturer-tortured' model that is established for us. 
Other clear examples in Wolfe's writing would include 'Forlesen', and _The
Book of the Long Sun_, with its pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.

_There Are Doors_ is another book of that sort, and, since sexuality and
the relationship between men and women is one of the major themes of the
book, the separation and tension between male and female experience and
roles is foregrounded. (More below.)

[I don't believe in this male-female idealized sex act model myself -- and
that's what (in part) I'm reacting to in the comment of mine that Patrick
quotes above. In the same essay in _The Straits of Messina_, Delany goes
on to discuss his own model of sexuality, where this internalized
male/female idealization is nothing but a social model -- which, when
internalized, does influence sexual behaviour -- but that vastly
diminishes the spectrum of (possible or pleasurable) sex acts when all sex
acts, whether between men and men, women and women, women and men, or
those who are differently gendered, are seen through the lens of the
ultimate Male-Female act.]

SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS. 

In _There Are Doors_, the protagonist (Green) starts on his search for
Lara -- whom we later find out is (one manifestation of) the Goddess. Lara
resides in a different world, reachable through the 'Doors' of the title,
that Green calls 'There'. 

'There', relationships with men and women are vastly different than our
world (or are they?), because 'There', men die after having sex. The
society of 'There' is different from ours, but in a subtle way, and one of
the great delights of reading Wolfe is finding out just how different, and
why, and putting the pieces together for oneself.

Because sexuality and the loneliness of a withdrawn, middle-aged man is
the central theme of the book, attitudes towards sex in the book are
foregrounded. (But this model of sex is found in all of Wolfe's fiction.)

The distortions of male-female relationships created by the fact that men
die after sex 'There' distort relationships MORE strongly in the direction
of male-female separation and difference, of course. However, as in all
fantasy, the fantasy world can be read as a distortion of the 'real' world
-- or in this case, in a sophisticated Wolfeian way, the world that has
only the authorial distortions of realism ('Cee-One', it's called in the
novel). 

There is internal support in (Green's perception of) 'Cee-One' for a
similar if less absolute male/female split (and not just the various
manifestations of the goddess in Green's life, either) in various
comments: 'Men were looking for love, women were looking for
husbands...'(can't remember the page, sorry)  'The bucktoothed woman
frowned, putting her hands together fingertip to fingertip like a man.
(p.5)' [like a man?]...
 
Because the male/female difference that Wolfe delineates both 'There' and
in 'Cee-One' are so strong, so (IMHO) incorrect, but also so internally
consistent, clear, and rich, that is the main source of my
uncomfortableness and fascination with _There Are Doors_. 

I'll stop there, but that's the gist of my argument. 

Part of what keeps me reading and re-reading Wolfe's fiction is the fact
that I do disagree with him so strongly about religious issues (including
the Catholicism that informs his books), social issues, and societal
issues -- but he makes quite a case in terms of the consistency of his
views and the power of his writing. 

--Zvi
zvi at interlog.com

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: Wesley Parsons <wrp at adorno.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:31:08 +0000

One of Wolfe's points indeed seems to be that biology not culture 
determines sex roles.  You change the biology, and you flip the sex roles.
Male post-coital demise changes who is in charge (the President is
female), who pursues whom (the women compete for attention and the
men are choosy), and who is more emotional or spontaneous (men have
to be very emotionally committed, or irresponsible, to have sex).

One way of looking at the difference Wolfe has created between the two
worlds is this:  In our world the burden of procreation falls  mainly on
women, who carry and nurse the child.  In the other world, the burden
falls even harder on men, who die.  This burden is a cost that affects
differentially the behavior of the two sexes.

>>> Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu> 06/30/98 01:53pm >>>

I forward this post from rec.arts.sf.written with Mr. Gilbert's
permission.  I'd be interested to hear what others think of the way Wolfe
writes about women and sex roles, but I don't have much myself to offer
on
the subject.  Maybe this will stir something up.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 28 Jun 1998 23:41:21 -0400
From: Zvi Gilbert <zvi at interlog.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: There Are Doors (was Re: Gene Wolfe --
Reccomendations?)

For example, this is true of Severian/Thecla, /Dorcas, /etc. in _The Book
of the New Sun_: men and women (or, more accurately, perhaps, male
and
female roles) are very different in that book, not to mention that from
the perspective of Severian, all sorts of relations between men and
women
are coloured by the 'torturer-tortured' model that is established for us. 
Other clear examples in Wolfe's writing would include 'Forlesen', and
_The
Book of the Long Sun_, with its pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.

_There Are Doors_ is another book of that sort, and, since sexuality and
the relationship between men and women is one of the major themes of
the
book, the separation and tension between male and female experience
and
roles is foregrounded. (More below.)

[I don't believe in this male-female idealized sex act model myself -- and
that's what (in part) I'm reacting to in the comment of mine that Patrick
quotes above. In the same essay in _The Straits of Messina_, Delany
goes
on to discuss his own model of sexuality, where this internalized
male/female idealization is nothing but a social model -- which, when
internalized, does influence sexual behaviour -- but that vastly
diminishes the spectrum of (possible or pleasurable) sex acts when all
sex
acts, whether between men and men, women and women, women and
men, or
those who are differently gendered, are seen through the lens of the
ultimate Male-Female act.]

SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS. 

In _There Are Doors_, the protagonist (Green) starts on his search for
Lara -- whom we later find out is (one manifestation of) the Goddess.
Lara
resides in a different world, reachable through the 'Doors' of the title,
that Green calls 'There'. 

 
Because the male/female difference that Wolfe delineates both 'There'
and
in 'Cee-One' are so strong, so (IMHO) incorrect, but also so internally
consistent, clear, and rich, that is the main source of my
uncomfortableness and fascination with _There Are Doors_. 

--Zvi
zvi at interlog.com

other works
ranjit at best.com
whorl at lists.best.com

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:27:10 +0000

contributions to make regarding male and female in TAD.

	While the modern view is that men and women are pretty much the same
except for plumbing, the Christian view is that they are radically
different and complementary. That's Wolfe's view, and it definitely informs
everything he writes. Theologically, the difference between men and women
ultimately reflects the difference between the Son and the Spirit, between
the Creator and His creation, and between Christ and the Church-Bride.
Wolfe has clearly put a great deal of thought into this, and it is in the
background, occasionally the foreground, of his work.
	While there are various Doors between our world and "There" in TAD, the
most significant is the Italian Restaurant, which is of course the Roman
Catholic Church. The Mama figure is the Church Herself, and her
black-dressed sober sons are priests. Wolfe's perspective is that
Christianity is the fulfillment not only of the Hebrew revelation, but of
all the best aspirations of all pre-Christian belief, and that the Church
draws all of that into herself. Thus, Mama encourages Mr. Green to pursue
Lara, an encouragement grounded in redemptive intent for both of them.
	I strongly suspect that the reason men die after intercourse in "There"
has something to do with Christ's death to bring life to His Bride. Wolfe
brings out many societal implications of this feature of "There," of
course, but I suspect many have more symbolic meanings than a first reading
would disclose.
	In Christianity, masculinity is protological and feminity is
eschatological. Adam came first, but Eve comes last. Men initiate; women
glorify and culminate. Christ comes to initiate the New Creation, which
develops into a glorified Bride-Cosmos. Thus, as Paul insists in Ephesians,
the man must lay down his life for his bride. Men die; women inherit.
	These kinds of distinctions are REALLY offensive to modern sensibilities,
of course, but you aren't going to understand Wolfe very well without them.
	Since men and women are radically different -- different all the way down
to the depth of the psyche, just as the Son and the Spirit are wholly
different yet one in God -- so the sins of men and women tend to be
different. Thus, in Wolfe there are bad men, and bad women, but they tend
to be bad in different ways. Similarly with good men and good women.
	Of course, since God is also One, there is a commonality as well as a
radical difference between men and women, and Wolfe is not blind to that
fact. But what makes him "strange" to many readers is that he plays off the
differences between men and women, and in our society one is not supposed
to do that. One result is that Wolfe is thought of as a misogynist by some.
	Predictably, one aspect of being a bad man or woman is to usurp the role
of the other sex. You cannot expect Wolfe to be sympathetic to
homosexuality or lesbianism. While it has been a while since I read TAD, I
believe part of the structure is that Green is too passive, and Lara too
domineering. 
	Beyond this, possibly the whole world of "There" is in some ways the
"modern world," where men are overly passive and women overly domineering.
Perhaps one should read "There" as a social criticism of modern society.
Men aren't fulfilling their roles, and women have taken them over. There
is, after all, a lot of socio-political criticism in Wolfe, as in for
instance *Operation Ares* and "Hour of Trust" (in which Gene himself makes
an appearance!).
	Well, these are just some thoughts, observations, and possibilities. Of
course, readers who are appalled by these ideas can still enjoy the novel
at other levels!
	Just a point of interest: Mr. North is modelled on Gordon Liddy, but the
name "North" comes from Ollie North, who Wolfe thought at the time he wrote
it was a lot like Liddy. He later changed his view of Ollie North, but the
book was already in print. (Information from a private conversation.)

Just stirring the pot, I am still:

Jim Jordan (formerly Nutria)

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 13:10:24 +0000

On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jim Jordan wrote:

> different and complementary. 

This is not the place for a big debate on this (I'd be happy to discuss it
in private e-mail), but this needs some qualification.  There are plenty
of Christians who would not agree that the male/female differences you
describe are "the Christian view"--including Christians committed to
orthodoxy, not just the Bishop Spong types.

I don't deny that the worldview you describe is quite possibly similar to
Wolfe's, however, which is really the only thing relevant to thread.

-Rostrum

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:35:46 +0000

>Wolfe's, however, which is really the only thing relevant to thread.

	Point taken and granted, though I think the overall "tradition" is pretty
close to what I set out, which outsetment of course was very brief and not
nuanced. For instance: "Why women be CAN not (not may not) be clergy?
Because the minister represents Christ to the Bride, so by design that is a
male role. Women cannot do it any more than men can menstruate." Now, such
argument is called in question today, by "conservative" people as well as
"liberal" ones, but it IS the tradition. And all I was trying to do was
give a thumbnail sketch of traditional thinking, since Wolfe is pretty
traditional, and, as you say, that's what is relevant here.
	Not trying to preempt valid theological discussion, which is for another
forum. So, your point is taken.

Nutria