{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/890", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 890, "subject": "prion & 5HoC", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "1998-07-02T14:04:24+00:00", "last": "1998-07-02T14:04:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1998-07-02T14:04:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: prion & 5HoC", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To the newly emerged prion:\n\nBoy, when you lurker virus types come out of the cyberplasm, you do so with\nvengence! Welcome to the Cerberus wing of urth. And thanks for the\nextremely interesting 5H post. It's filled with so many provocative ideas I\nmay not be able to cover everything first time through, but I'll give it my\nbest. ( Just when I thought the fever had passed, I have a relapse. Oh\nwell. Damn infections, anyway.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, Gene Wolfe (the author) has the first name Eugene" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I believe Gene's first name is just plain monosyllabic\n'Gene'--I've never seen it listed anywhere as Eugene, including Mark\nZiesing's CASTLE OF THE OTTER, which is where I usually go when I want\nsemi-official biographical info about GW. I could be wrong; regardless I do\nlike the eloquence of your argument. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, why is she called Jeannine? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a very good question and several others besides me have wondered\nwhy it isn't Jeannette. Does the -nine aspect of Jeannine relate to the\nother \"numbered\" abos we meet (Seven Girls Waiting, Twelvewalker)? Does it\nsomehow relate to the changing, configuration-based names of the Shadow\nChildren? (We have names for groups of 1, 3, 5 and 7, but not 9). Is she a\nprisoner--the other association we have with numbers? I still have no major\ntheory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In his essay, Borski says that Jeannine is probably Seven Girls\nWaiting. I'm not sure, but if she is, maybe Pink Butterfly is\nCelestine, who wears pink." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really, really like this idea, and especially its collateral notion--that\nCelestine Etienne might be an abo! (Yes, folks, that loud noise you hear is\nalga screaming \"fan fiction, fan fiction\"). Look, we already know several\nabos have prostituted themselves (Victor's mother, Cassilla, and possibly\nthe bashful scarred whore at Roncevaux), and as Jeannine states early,\nDavid's mother (who I believe Celestine is) was very likely a prostitute.\nThe ability of the shapechanging prostitutes to look younger might\ntherefore account for the youthful appearance of Celestine--Victor\nestimates her to be 27-28, but if she were actually older, this might\nremove the legitimate objection Tony Ellis has filed saying she's too young\nto be David's mother. Dunno, Tony, what do you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from naming support, if Jeannine were SGW or a Shadow Child, she\ncould be the source of the information that VRT uses to write A Story,\nmaking it more true than false (maybe)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another very interesting notion I like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if she faked her death before, why not again? She may not have\ndied at the end but actually have found some stash of Maitre's (in\nspite of No. 5's theory). She could then pretend to die and use the\nmoney to return to Ste. Anne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This I'm less sure about, because I do think Maitre has squandered the\nfamily fortune; i.e., there is no money to be found. Besides, I like the\nnotion that Jeannine dies of old age, far away from home (a prisoner, yes,\nof her own fate)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In spite of my support, I have some questions for Borski. You state\nin your essays on the Cave Canem page that Aunt Jeannine is Seven\nGirls Waiting, and that she is a Shadow Child. Which is it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a good question. Possibly she's both or neither--it depends on if\nabo differences are more in the nature of tribal or Linnaean specific. Do\nwe think Masai/pygmy in other words? Or Hutu/Tutsi? Who or what you are may\ndepend on which abo group raises you, Wetlander, Hillmen or Shadow Child.\nAlso remember that the correspondences between \"A Story\" (a stated work of\nfiction) and the rest of 5th Head may be as much refractive as reflective.\n(Note also your own \"more true than false\" codicil above.)\n\nPart of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "what you say to make her a shadow child is that she called up shadow\nselves to listen to her conversations with Marsch/VRT. As evidence,\nyou say that a copy editor would not let VRT write - her \"girls,\" as\nshe called them_ because it is redundant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I meant Gene Wolfe's copy editor here--and despite the arguments of one\nof the world's better editors of fiction, I still maintain this redundancy\nartifice is meant to draw our attention. (Note earlier, when Victor calls\nthe French settlement in the back of beyond, \"Frogtown.\" It's not\n\"so-called 'Frogtown'\" or \"'Frogtown,' as Victor called it.\" It's just\nplain \"Frogtown.\" And yes I know one entry is made by Dr. Marsch, and the\nother is by Victor.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Aunt J is not a Shadow\nChild, then what do you think the girls are? If she is a Shadow\nChild, why can she singularly create multiple aquastors when the Old\nWise One was formed only from the confluence of two or more minds?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good question. Perhaps it's easier to create a bunch of tiny aquastars than\na knowledgeable old coot. Also consider the Old One is a \"group norm\" or\n\"average.\" (Single entries are possible, just not divisible.) Perhaps\nJeannine's being abetted by Marsch. Perhaps there really are other\nprostitutes present and they're abos too--like many of the other hookers in\n5HofC. Also keep in mind not everything we're told in \"A Story\" is\nabsolutely 100% true. In other words I'm still thinking this one through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, in the essays there is some confusing information. You say the\noriginal human Aunt Jeannine (who I'll call Eugenia from now on) was\nthe daughter of the original uncloned Gene Wolfe. If that is so, she\ncouldn't be the baby in white being held by a young GW's mother in the\npicture. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You lost me here. Or me you. Look at my family tree in the appendix of CAVE\nCANEM. The woman holding baby Jeannine is Rosemary, who's married to the\noriginal uncloned Gene Wolfe. She's not the latter's mother--which I think\nis what you're saying. Or do I still have this confused?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd also like to add that as No. 5 was looking at \"his\" mother in the\npicture he wondered about her ethnicity (because she didn't have the\nplanetary face of Ste. Croix, because she's not descended from the\noriginal GW) and as he pondered, he thought she might have Celtic\nancestry from Wales, and says \"Wales\" aloud. Aunt J doesn't know what\nhe was thinking, and so she only hears him name a country while\nlooking at it. She says he's right. I think she mean that the photo\nwas taken in Wales. The photo is also described as being just white\nand shades of brown. This always made me seem that it was a very old\npicture. Just when was the first GW born? Is there some other\nexplanation for the coloring?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the photo was taken back on Earth, in Wales. The young parents\ndepicted are Gene & Rosemary Wolfe, holding baby Jeannine (who like Mary\nBlount will journey across the void to Sainte Anne as an infant). The white\nand brown shades in the photo are sepia tints--a very popular way of\nrendering photos still today (it makes them look old-fashioned/neo-artsy)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how much is true in A Story by John V. Marsch, but could\nMarsch (because it sounds like marsh) have an association with the\nWetlanders? I know it seems that he is like Eastwind in the book\nbecause of analogies such that he is circumcised and is killed by\nSandwalker (who's like VRT). Also, his middle name begins with V and\nVolturnus was the Roman god of the east wind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the V-for-Volturnus/Eastwind notion for the Terran version of Dr.\nMarsch and the V-for-Victor notion for the Annese version of Marsch.\n(Thanks for bringing the Volturnus link to my attention.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The father of Sandwalker and Eastwind is Bloodyfinger in the story and\nRT, VRT's father, can't use his hands well and has red hair. Is there\nany connection you can think of dealing with the fact that\nBloodyfinger is drowned by the Wetlanders in A Story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None that I can think of. But I do note that \"bloody fingers\" supports my\noften-held-to-be-crazy-notion about RT sticking his hands under a train so\nhe doesn't have to take the Shovel test and be proved an abo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, this may have no significance at all, but if VRT's name is\nVictor Roy Trenchard (I think it is), each of his names might stand\nfor one of the people in the St. Anne/St. Croix system. Victor for\nthe English because they defeated the French? French because they\ndefeated the natives? Hillmen because they defeated the Wetlanders? \n(I think English because it is an English name, but it comes from\nLatin so I'm not sure). Roy for the Celts who were caught BETWEEN the\nEnglish and French in the Napoleonic Wars (which are mentioned when\nMarsch sees RT in the book)? Trenchard for the French? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I believe mantis has argued something similar to this--can't\nremember if it was urth or privately--but I do think there is some validity\nto this approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Long ago, one of two things happened. The first is that ancient\nhumans (or probably some other hominid race related to them) from\nEarth came to Ste. Anne and developed or gave themselves shapechanging\nabilities (or else no humans came there and the shapechangers are\nentirely natural native inhabitants). They spent time changing into\ndifferent things and forgot about Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Tony Ellis has something to say about your various speculations\nconcerning Annese evolution and the various migratory waves you posit to\nand from Ste. Anne. (As someone who holds a degree in the life sciences I\nfavor the convergent evolution theory rather than the pseudo-mythic\nprehistoric spacefarers riff--perhaps this is also due to the fact I've\nalmost come to blows with \"creation scientists.\") " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In VRT, when VRT writes that he (he actually writes it as if Marsch\ndoes it, as he does everything else) killed the cat, maybe Marsch\nactually killed her and that's why he kills Marsch; the final straw. \nOr else he just writes that Marsch does so, because it would be\nconsistent with what Marsch would have done if he were alive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still hold to my theory in \"Marschian Sexuality\" that Victor freaks out\nwhen Dr. Marsch puts the heavy moves on him and then cuts his throat. I\nalso still believe Victor killed the catgirl in a moment of Oedipal\nrage/angst." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, isn't there a book called Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somebody recently mentioned another Cerberus book, but I can't find it in\nthe archives. (Seems to me it was French and pulpy???)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's all. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Classic understatement. Send more soon. As it is I'll have to do quite a\nbit of revising to CAVE\nCANEM (sounds of subterranean tunneling--where's that damn sop anyway?). \n\nMy thanks again.\n\nscolex/Robert Borski" } ] } ] }