{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/898", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 898, "subject": "Black hole vs. wormhole", "messages": 17, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-07-02T19:52:03+00:00", "last": "1998-08-02T17:45:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-02T19:52:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nIn looking through the archives, I've seen much discussion about the\nblack hole at the center of Urth's sun which is causing it to die\nprematurely.\n\nHowever, if a black hole really was at the center of the sun, or even\ntouched it, it would absorb all the material of the sun in seconds,\ngrowing a small bit (relatively) in the process. Urth would be\ncircling a black hole, not a red dwarf.\n\nI have always assumed that it is a wormhole at the center of the sun. \nIt is at least twice refered to as \"the worm at the heart of the sun.\"\n I think this is partly a pun by Wolfe, as well as representing the\ndragon (called worm by the Norse) Nidhogg(r), who gnaws at the roots\nof Yggdrasil, the World Ash.\n\nA wormhole is not a physical object, it is a four-dimensional\nstructure of space-time that has the physical form of a spherical hole\nin the universe, leading to another place. The mass at the center of\nthe sun would fall into the hole and lose mass, which is what the\ninhabitants of Urth see. The more mass that falls into the hole, the\nsmaller the sun gets. With less mass it fuses less of its atoms and\nproduces less energy, which is why it is red (red is the least\nenergetic form of visible light). It would, however, take many\nmillennia for the sun to become consumed entirely. That's much longer\nthan the few seconds it would take for a black hole of any size to\nconsume it, however, but VERY much shorter than the billions of years\nit would exist as a fusing star otherwise, and the trillions upon\ntrillions of years it would have, after it stopped fusing, as a white\ndwarf.\n\nThis also relates to some comments I remember about the \"black hole\"\npossibly being the other side of the white fountain that Severian\ninserts into the old sun. It was theorized by someone that it's like\na time loop, the hole exists because he will create the fountain and\nvice versa.\n\nThis theory cannot be so because if it were so, the fountain would\njust plug the hole and the sun would remain a small red star. The\nfountain has to give more than is taken for the old sun to grow larger\nand gain back the energy.\n\nBut, more than this, the white fountain would be unable to \"plug\" a\nblack hole at all. A black hole is a physical object with mass and\nsize. The fountain puts out energy and matter, and is physical as\nwell. You can't plug an object with another object. The black hole\nwould just be fed more by the matter coming from the fountain. And as\nI said earlier, the black hole would have consumed the sun seconds\nafter they touched anyway!\n\nA wormhole, however, could be \"plugged.\" The white fountain would\nsend all the matter the hole would be able to take into it, and leave\nenough left over to continually be replenishing the sun as well. It\nwould not just stop dying, but begin growing.\n\nI think I should also comment here about what Baldanders said about\nblack hole, white fountains, and energy flow between dimensional levels.\n\nBaldanders is the only character in the books who calls the thing at\nthe sun's center a black hole. He also says it has taken him a\n(presumably long) lifetime of study to figure this out. However, he\ndoesn't really have a very powerful technology for matters like this\n(he's mainly a biologist) and is wrong, I believe.\n\nHowever, he's right about the flow of energy between universes (which\nhe may have learned from the Hierodules, who are in a position to know\nabout such things, if asked). Even though li'l Tzadkiel tells\nSeverian that the Brook Madregot flows from the higher state of Yesod\nto Briah, this is the natural outlet of energy, just like all matter. \nHowever, just as Baldanders says, when a black hole forms in a\nuniverse, it sends matter into a higher universe as a white fountain.\n\nThis is just like a chemical reaction. The normal state is for\nentropy to cause matter to go into a lower state (like the Brook\ndoes), but if there is enough matter concentrated into one place, a\nreaction occurs releasing more heat, increasing the energy level. \nJust as you must apply concentrated heat of a certain and specific\namount to an object to cause it to burn, releasing energy as fire, you\nmust concentrate a certain amount of matter into a space to cause this\nmatter to gain a level.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-02T23:04:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "prion wrote:\nHowever, if a black hole really was at the center of the sun, or even\ntouched it, it would absorb all the material of the sun in seconds,\ngrowing a small bit (relatively) in the process. Urth would be\ncircling a black hole, not a red dwarf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While your theory that the cancer at the heart of the Sun is a wormhole\n(rather than a black hole) is interesting--and perhaps true--it is not\nnecessarily true that a black hold would consume the Sun so quickly as you\nassert. Black holes have been given a reputation for being super powered\nvacuum cleaners in outer space. However, a black hole has NO effect (other\nthan the normal gravitational attraction any other massive body would have)\non objects that are not within the proper radius (Swarzchild radius, if I\nrecall correctly). Thus, a small black hole could be moving around slowly\nwithin the heart of the Sun, sucking up little bits and pieces as it went,\nwithout an instantaneous mass-consumption of the Sun's energy. Witness\nDavid Brin's EARTH, or Dan Simmons' HYPERION for an example of a black hole\nslowly eating away at the Earth's core.\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-02T20:36:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI'm afraid I must defend my remarks on the nature of black holes.\n\nJason Voegele asserts that a black hole is not a guzzler, but has only\nthe gravitational effect of any other object of the same mass. This\nis absolutely true. However, if a massive object were to be near\nenough to touch the sun, let alone be within it, without revolving\naround it at nearly the speed of light, the two would merge into a\nlarger object consisting of both the components. If the massive\nobject were a black hole, in the merging the end result would be a\nlarge black hole, as no black hole can be destroyed by the addition of\nnew mass or transformed into any other class of object. The\nabsorbtion effects are not limited to the Schwartzchild radius. This\nmeasure is the size of the radius of a black hole in comparison to its\nmass; a ratio relationship. The SR is thus the size of a black hole of\na specific mass; that is, the mass can be exactly determined by the\nsize of the black hole. The SR is merely, then, the size of the hole,\nthe distance from the center at which matter can only escape by moving\ndirectly away from the hole at the speed of light. Anything closer,\nby definition, is inside of the hole. It's gravitational effects can\nbe felt over an infinite distance, which increases in area at the\nspeed of light, which is also the speed at which gravity propagates. \nThe sun is slowly sucking everything in the universe into itself, as\nis everything, but most things are moving away from it much faster\nthan its gravity absorbs matter inwards. In addition, Einsteinian\nmechanics and quantum mechanics are the sciences which describe some\nevents of a black hole as opposed to Newtonian mechanics. If you are\nfar away from the hole, it will be just like a massive object of the\nsame mass would be, as I meant when in my post I described that the\ndistant Urth would be circling the black hole, not falling into it. \nHowever, if an object is close to a black hole and not moving away\nvery quickly (as it would certainly would not be doing if the black\nhole were inside of it) it will be sucked in because of gravity, just\nas a bird falls to the Earth if it stops flying.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-03T00:02:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "prion,\n\nYou're certainly right about how such a black hole could \"guzzle\" the Sun if\nit were planted firmly inside of it. However, I just do not believe that it\nis necessarily such a fast process. A small black hole still has a small\nSwartzchild radius and would thus be slurping some amount of energy from the\nSun, but not necessarily guzzling the whole thing at once.\n\nJason Voegele\n(who is admittedly arguing from a fading memory of his Astronomy course\nseveral years ago)\n\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: mary whalen \nTo: urth at lists.best.com \nDate: Thursday, July 02, 1998 11:39 PM\nSubject: (urth) Black hole vs. wormhole\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI'm afraid I must defend my remarks on the nature of black holes.\n\nJason Voegele asserts that a black hole is not a guzzler, but has only\nthe gravitational effect of any other object of the same mass. This\nis absolutely true. However, if a massive object were to be near\nenough to touch the sun, let alone be within it, without revolving\naround it at nearly the speed of light, the two would merge into a\nlarger object consisting of both the components. If the massive\nobject were a black hole, in the merging the end result would be a\nlarge black hole, as no black hole can be destroyed by the addition of\nnew mass or transformed into any other class of object. The\nabsorbtion effects are not limited to the Schwartzchild radius. This\nmeasure is the size of the radius of a black hole in comparison to its\nmass; a ratio relationship. The SR is thus the size of a black hole of\na specific mass; that is, the mass can be exactly determined by the\nsize of the black hole. The SR is merely, then, the size of the hole,\nthe distance from the center at which matter can only escape by moving\ndirectly away from the hole at the speed of light. Anything closer,\nby definition, is inside of the hole. It's gravitational effects can\nbe felt over an infinite distance, which increases in area at the\nspeed of light, which is also the speed at which gravity propagates.\nThe sun is slowly sucking everything in the universe into itself, as\nis everything, but most things are moving away from it much faster\nthan its gravity absorbs matter inwards. In addition, Einsteinian\nmechanics and quantum mechanics are the sciences which describe some\nevents of a black hole as opposed to Newtonian mechanics. If you are\nfar away from the hole, it will be just like a massive object of the\nsame mass would be, as I meant when in my post I described that the\ndistant Urth would be circling the black hole, not falling into it.\nHowever, if an object is close to a black hole and not moving away\nvery quickly (as it would certainly would not be doing if the black\nhole were inside of it) it will be sucked in because of gravity, just\nas a bird falls to the Earth if it stops flying.\n\nprion\n\n\n\n\n_________________________________________________________\nDO YOU YAHOO!?\nGet your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-02T21:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nJason, thanks for addressing the issue of the object at the center of\nthe sun in tBotNS, but I still know a black hole, of any size, would\nabsorb the whole of the sun in a few seconds.\n\nAt the Schwartzchild radius, the outer edge of the black hole, matter\nis drawn by gravity toward the center at the speed of light, and thus\nnothing can escape from this distance. At greater and greater\ndistances from the center, matter is drawn toward the center at slower\nand slower speeds, but as the hole absorbs the matter right next to it\nwhile in the sun, it grows larger and its gravitational force grows as\nwell, in a self-feeding cycle that only ends after all of the sun's\nmatter has been drawn into it, which occurs more and more quickly as\nit absorbs the matter right next to it at almost the speed of light\nall the time, and it's surface area increases the more it absorbs. \nDon't forget that the sun's own gravity is drawing all it's material\ninward towards the center without any help from the black hole. \nThat's why the sun experiences fusion: the matter of the sun is\npulled toward the center by the sun's gravity with such force that the\natoms fuse together and produce energy. With a black hole at the\ncenter, all of the mass that would be fusing would be drawn into the\nhole almost immediately and would continue to be drawn into it at an\nincreasing rate as the hole's size and gravity increased. This\n(w)hole process would take only a few second to occur.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-02T23:08:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI've just thought of some new evidence for the thing at the center of\nUrth's sun not to be a black hole.\n\nDo you know what a quasar or active galactic nucleus is? It's a black\nhole that is absorbing a large amount of mass by sucking in\nneighboring stars. As the gravity draws the matter toward it at an\nincreasing speed, the matter bunches up together at high (near light)\nspeed. As it presses together, it is eventually so pressurized that\nthe atoms fuse in huge numbers and release energy. The energy\nreleased in this way that is not pointing toward the black hole\nescapes, and we see the light (and other radiation) given off with\ntelescopes.\n\nThis same process occurs with a black hole of any size that is\nabsorbing mass. When there's much more mass than there is hole, a lot\nof mass is involved in the process. The fusion caused by this would\ncause an explosion, assuming the hole didn't grow big enough for it to\nabsorb all the rest of the mass before the energy can make it through\nthe mass (which I think it would probably be able to do).\n\nThis same process happens in large suns that die. When a large star\nis \"alive,\" it is undergoing fusion in its core. When the core has\nbeen fused into iron, no more energy is gained by fusing the iron into\nlarge molecules, energy is absorbed instead. When this happens, the\nstar's gravity is still pulling the star toward the center, but the\ncore is releasing no energy that's pushing out. The core fuses more,\nabsorbing gravitational energy. It becomes so massive, it pulls the\ncore together until the protons and electrons in it's atoms actually\nare fused together themselves into neutrons. THIS fusion releases a\nlot of energy. It causes a supernova. The outer part of the star is\nblown away by the energy, along with much of the fused and unfused\nmatter near the core. What remains of the core is a neutron star.\n\nIf an even more massive star has fused its core into iron, the gravity\npulling in is so powerful it immediately forms a black hole at the\ncenter. The outer layers rush toward this gravity center so quickly\nthat much of it fuses and releases a lot of energy. This is a more\npowerful supernova (I believe it's called a hypernova, but I don't\nremember for sure).\n\nIf the star is even more massive, the black hole that forms from the\ncore is so massive it sucks all the rest of the star into it so\nquickly that almost no energy escapes. In this case, no supernova\noccurs.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-07-03T02:22:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still know a black hole, of any size, would\nabsorb the whole of the sun in a few seconds" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "prion,\n\nI don't know if you're right about this but it seems to my tired and\nbefuddled brain (after reading over 20 of you messages more or less in a\nrow) that you've absorbed the entire Urth list in nearly as short a time.\n8->\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-03T08:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Peter Stephenson wrote:\nI suspect prion's right about what a real black hole >would do to the\nsun. I don't necessarily think that >matters to Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is possible Wolfe wouldn't have known or cared about the real\neffects of a black hole in the sun. However, since the story would be\nentirely scientifically plausible (in general) if it were a wormhole\ninstead, which is what I have been arguing. It also is refered to as\na \"worm\" in several parts of The Book of the New Sun. I think this is\nmeant to be a pun on wormhole. The reason he would want to make this\npun, is that in Norse mythology the decay of the universe is caused by\na worm (what we call a dragon) who is gnawing at the roots of the\nWorld Ash (a giant tree that leads from Heaven to Hell).\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-04T09:47:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt Freestone wrote:\nThis sounds right- it's a positive feedback cycle, but >it doesn't\nprove your claim that the process only >takes a few seconds: it\ndepends how big the black >hole was to start with, and on the rate of\ngrowth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The initial size of the black hole doesn't have much to do with the\ntime for the cycle to complete. Any size of a hole would complete the\nprocess in under a minute (probably under thirty seconds, but I'm not\nsure). Even a microscopic black hole would absorb enough mass in\nunder a second to be much more massive than a human.\n\nThe calculations that an astrophysicist would have to perform would be\nhow small the initial black hole would be before the outer part of the\nstar exploded before the black hole finished (as it would if the hole\nwas microscopic). I explained that stars which naturally create black\nholes at their cores (which our sun will never be able to do) either\nare going to fall entirely into the black hole (if it's big enough to\nabsorb it in some number of seconds) or partially explode (if it's\nsmaller and takes a few extra seconds).\n\nScientists still don't know the exact size a black hole must be in\nrelation to the star it's absorbing to completely absorb it (and it's\nmore complex than just a ratio on these two things). Nevertheless, in\neither case, the process is very quick.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-04T14:39:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I've pretty much given up on the debate about a black hole absorbing a\nstar in a matter of seconds since I don't have the facts to back up my side,\nand prion seems to know quite a bit more about the process anyway. But this\nstatement has me a little confused:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "prion wrote:\nScientists still don't know the exact size a black hole must be in\nrelation to the star it's absorbing to completely absorb it (and it's\nmore complex than just a ratio on these two things)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you suggesting that there is some critical size for which a black hole\nis able to completely absorb a MUCH larger star? If so, what about a black\nhole that is VERY small, on the order of a few nanometers in diameter? Of\ncourse, I doubt such a thing could occur naturally, but the text suggests\nthat it's an artificial creation anyway (at least in the sense that it\ndidn't occur without some bit of tinkering by someone out there). Would\nsuch a small black hole still be capable of absorbing a star so quickly?\n\nAnyone on a close personal relationship with Stephen Hawking? 8^)\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-04T12:51:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nJason, I've pretty much exhausted my knowledge about black holes, too,\nso don't worry.\n\nTo explain that (admittedly complex) sentence, what I meant was that\nif a small black hole has to absorb a significantly larger amount of\nmass all at once, the mass far away from the black hole will be\naccelerated so much that it squashes against the mass closer to the\nblack hole, and some of this mass will fuse, releasing energy and\ncausing an explosion which lets some of the outer mass accelerate in\nthe opposite direction enough to escape the black hole's gravity. A\nblack hole can absorb an infinite amount of mass, but difficulties\nlike this can arise if it tries to absorb all of it at once.\n\nAtomic-size (and much smaller) black holes can exist naturally. In\nfact, there is a theory that they form all the time all throughout\nspace. They would quickly absorb into themselves all matter if it\nweren't for the fact that there is a quantum mechanical process called\nHawking Radiation (named after Stephen Hawking) that takes advantage\nof the fact that quantum uncertainty dictates that the mass of the\nblack hole is not 100% certain to be in the black hole. This slight\nchance causes some particles and antiparticles to form outside of the\nblack hole that are made up of the material of the black hole itself. \nThese are usually drawn back into the black hole and cause no change. \nHowever, these naturally forming sub-atomic black holes only need to\nhave this chance of losing matter happen once, because the loss takes\nall the mass of the hole quickly so that the particles that would be\nreabsorbed have nowhere to be drawn back to. There is a lot more\nabout this phenomenon, but it really doesn't matter here.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-05T11:20:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI don't think I know any sources that say what would happen if a black\nhole spontaneously appeared in the center of a normal star. I'm\nbasing my arguments on the properties of black holes and applying them\nto an abnormal situation.\n\nI'm also not using any new information to back up my theory. \nEverything I've said that applies to a black hole being able to absorb\na sun in which it appears is based on properties that were worked out\nwell before any of the New Sun books were written.\n\nIt's true that no one can create wormholes today, but no one can make\nblack holes either. The properties and physical description of\nwormholes are scientifically described today, they're just\nfour-dimensional holes; nothing complex.\n\nIt's possible that the black hole could be regulated, but why? If\nsomeone put it there, why would they want it to be so slow? And they\ncould just make a wormhole instead, and not have to monitor or control\nit at all.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-05T21:05:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nMantis, I don't doubt that if the sun became an accretion disk around\na black hole it would last longer than if a black hole simple appeared\nat the center of the sun, or was simply inserted with no effort to\nform an accretion disk. However, Urth's sun is definitely not a disk\ncircling a black hole, it's still a sphere.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-06T09:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nAll right, I think Damien Broderick's evidence shows conclusively that\na black hole could exist inside the sun. However, I still don't think\nthat this is what happened to Urth's sun.\n\nFirst of all, liberation of energy from matter by gravitation is much\nmore efficient than doing so by fusion. It seems that using a black\nhole would actually cause the lifetime of the sun to dramatically\nincrease as a main sequence star. Why would Urth's sun become to weak\nso quickly if this were true?\n\nFinally, how do you plug up a black hole? A black hole takes in\nmatter, a white hole puts out matter. As the black hole takes matter\nin, it grows. Putting a white hole by a black hole would cause the\nblack hole to enlarge, not plug it. Since the two objects can's\noccupy the same space, it also seems that there would be an\nunbalancing effect caused by the unequal push of the energy of the\nwhite hole in one direction and the suction of the black hole in the\nother. This would probably make the sun be turbulent, rather than\nstable.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-07-06T16:54:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:41 1998-07-06 -0700, prion wrote:\nThis is Sean Whalen (prion)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, how do you plug up a black hole? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Suppose the white hole was the other end of the black hole,\nso that they were two ends of a wormhole (which prion is\nkeen on). Mightn't they just cancel out?\n\nOf course, that makes the creation of the White Fountain in\n_Urth_ a bit hard to explain, unaccompanied as it is by a\nblack hole. Hmmm... maybe a black hole meeting a white hole\nis like two bits of pipe between universes meeting and joining\ninto a longer bit of pipe, which passes by our universe altogether.\nA very Spectacled-Bear-like notion.\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-06T17:11:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nSBear, I don't think that the black hole and white fountain are the\nsame hole. If that were so, when they canceled each other out, which\nI'm not sure that they would do anyway, the sun would remain small and\nred. The white fountain is continuing to send forth matter and energy\nfrom itself, with is replenishing the sun back to it's old\ncharacteristics. I think I may have discussed this in my original\npost on black holes.\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-08-02T17:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole vs. wormhole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nThis is the latest thing I can think of that I think is evidence that\nthe object in Urth's sun is a wormhole rather than a black hole.\n\nIf the sun became cool enough to be red, the Urth would be much colder\nthan it is in the books. However, if the Urth were closer to the sun,\nit could continue to exist in a fairly reasonable, though\nuncomfortable, state.\n\nThe mass of the sun would fall through the wormhole and no longer be\nin the sun. This process would cause the sun to gradually become less\nmassive. The Urth would have less of a gravitational pull toward the\nsun, but still be moving at the same speed. It could only stay in\norbit by moving closer to the sun. I don't know enough about physics\nto determine if this also could cause the moon to come closer to the\nUrth as a result of complex interactions.\n\nA blackhole would absorb mass from the sun, but it would still be\nthere in the black hole. The mass of the system would not change and\nthe Urth would continue in its current orbit. It would be much colder\nthan it is in the books if this happened.\n\nprion" } ] } ] }