{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/905", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 905, "subject": "Severian and the white fountain", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-07-02T22:08:23+00:00", "last": "1998-07-19T12:15:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-02T22:08:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and the white fountain", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nIn the Urth of the New Sun, when Severian goes back in time to the\ntime when he becomes Apu-Punchau, I believe that when he is following\nthe Brook Madregot that since he is not linked to any one place in\nBriah, he can draw power from the white fountain, even if he entered\nthe Brook from a point that was too far away from the fountain to have\nyet been reached by its light. So even though he goes back in time\nwhen in the Brook, and the fountain thus moves farther and farther\naway from where Severian was when he entered it, the fountain still\nexists somewhere, and he can get power from it. However, when he\nreaches the point in the past where the fountain comes into existence,\nhe can not use its power to continue his journey, as it does not exist\nbeyond that time. He then enters into Briah on Earth and is again\nconstrained by the distance he is from the fountain. It has just come\ninto existence, and he can not come into contact with it's light until\nthe light reaches Earth, traveling at the speed of light (which is\nmuch faster than the fountain itself moves). He has no powers at that\nplace and time. After a while, though, he is killed and put in a\nsealed-up house. Sometime later Ossipago, Barbatus, and Famulimus\ncome to that time and use their power to create an eidolon from his\nmemory. Then he waits until the light from the fountain reaches him. \nIt does, and he now regains his power, so he goes into the future,\njust as the power of the arriving light allows his old body to\nresurrect itself. Is this right?\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-07T20:43:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and the White Fountain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After my most recent reading of _Urth_, I realized that I didn't know the\nanswers to some fundamental questions: Why is it necessary for anybody to\n\"bring the White Fountain\" to Urth? Why can't the Hierogrammates just\nsend it? And if someone has to bring it, why must it be an Autarch? And\nif it has to be an Autarch, why Severian in preference to Ymar or the old\nAutarch? Apheta tells Severian that he passed his examination because\n\"'the chance [was] high that you would bring a fresh sun to your Urth,'\"\n(ch. 22), and Tzadkiel says much the same thing at the \"examination,\" but\nto the best of my recollection Severian doesn't do anything consciously to\nguide the White Fountain; he's not even there for most of the centuries\nduring which the White Fountain is approaching. I did eventually come up\nwith some answers. I can't cite texts from the book in support of them,\nthough; they just make more sense than anything else I've been able to\ncome up with. (Peter Wright, as part of his theory that the \"religious\"\naspects of _Book_ and _Urth_ are conscious deceptions put forth by the\nHierogrammates to hide their self-seeking motives, argues that Severian is\nmade to \"bring\" the New Sun to convince the people of Urth that their\ndestruction is part of the Increate's plan. I don't agree with this\ntheory, but as will be seen it influenced my own.)\n\nFirst of all, the White Fountain does not need to be guided by a human.\nSeverian's function is rather to accept the White Fountain on behalf of\nUrth. Since the New Sun's coming will kill nearly all of Urth's current\npopulation, the Hierogrammates feel themselves morally obligated to get\nthe permission of a representative of Urth before sending it. This is why\nit has to be an Autarch: because, as Severian says a couple of times, the\nAutarch is the only inhabitant of Urth who is responsible for the\nwell-being of Urth as a whole.\n\nAs for why Severian in particular, I'm not entirely sure about this. It\nmay have something to do with the battle royal between the aquastors and\nthe sailors, whose role I'm not clear on. But I'm inclined to think that\nthe real answer is that Severian is more likely than the other candidates,\nnot to guide the White Fountain successfully, but to accept it in the\nfirst place. The Hierogrammates may well have foreseen that had Ymar or\nthe old Autarch been told of the consequences of the New Sun (as they\nwould have to have been had they passed their \"trials\"), they\nwould have turned it down, rather than assume the burden of responsibility\nfor those millions of deaths. Severian, on the other hand, was \nindoctrinated as an apprentice torturer with the concept of inflicting\npain for the greater good of the whole. Though he failed to act\naccordingly on two occasions, this indoctrination may have tipped the\nprobabilities in favor of Severian's acceptance of the New Sun.\n\nAny comments? Any better ideas?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Coleman", "address": "marc.coleman at mwcia.org" }, "date": "1998-07-08T08:04:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian and the White Fountain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Severian, on the other hand, was " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "indoctrinated as an apprentice torturer with the concept of inflicting\npain for the greater good of the whole. Though he failed to act\naccordingly on two occasions, this indoctrination may have tipped the\nprobabilities in favor of Severian's acceptance of the New Sun.\n\nAny comments? Any better ideas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well said. He walks down a hallway before his examination and has to see\nhis \"clients\" from their point of view. When he killed the old Autarch and\ntook the many Autarch's personalities, that seemed pretty symbolic of what\ncomes later, once again doing \"what had to be done\". marc " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-19T12:15:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and the White Fountain", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote:\nAdam asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it necessary for anybody to \"bring the White Fountain\" to Urth? Why\ncan't the Hierogrammates just send it?<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who\nserve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area\nand decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I meant to ask was not \"Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes\nWhite Fountains to everybody who need one?\" but \"Having decided to give\nUrth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth,\nassuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through\nthis routine of having Severian \"become\" the White Fountain as well, which\nhe then \"guides\" to Urth, or at least believes he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also: > \n\nSeverian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the\nrepresentative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small portion\nof it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but Severian's \"trial\" is not, as he origingally believes, to\ndetermine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to\ndetermine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So\nit's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio\n\"representative of Urth.\"\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }