Subject: (urth) Severian and the white fountain

From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:08:23 +0000

This is Sean Whalen (prion).

In the Urth of the New Sun, when Severian goes back in time to the
time when he becomes Apu-Punchau, I believe that when he is following
the Brook Madregot that since he is not linked to any one place in
Briah, he can draw power from the white fountain, even if he entered
the Brook from a point that was too far away from the fountain to have
yet been reached by its light.  So even though he goes back in time
when in the Brook, and the fountain thus moves farther and farther
away from where Severian was when he entered it, the fountain still
exists somewhere, and he can get power from it.  However, when he
reaches the point in the past where the fountain comes into existence,
he can not use its power to continue his journey, as it does not exist
beyond that time.  He then enters into Briah on Earth and is again
constrained by the distance he is from the fountain.  It has just come
into existence, and he can not come into contact with it's light until
the light reaches Earth, traveling at the speed of light (which is
much faster than the fountain itself moves).  He has no powers at that
place and time.  After a while, though, he is killed and put in a
sealed-up house.  Sometime later Ossipago, Barbatus, and Famulimus
come to that time and use their power to create an eidolon from his
memory.  Then he waits until the light from the fountain reaches him. 
It does, and he now regains his power, so he goes into the future,
just as the power of the arriving light allows his old body to
resurrect itself.  Is this right?

prion

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From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:43:10 +0000

After my most recent reading of _Urth_, I realized that I didn't know the
answers to some fundamental questions: Why is it necessary for anybody to
"bring the White Fountain" to Urth?  Why can't the Hierogrammates just
send it?  And if someone has to bring it, why must it be an Autarch?  And
if it has to be an Autarch, why Severian in preference to Ymar or the old
Autarch?  Apheta tells Severian that he passed his examination because
"'the chance [was] high that you would bring a fresh sun to your Urth,'"
(ch. 22), and Tzadkiel says much the same thing at the "examination," but
to the best of my recollection Severian doesn't do anything consciously to
guide the White Fountain; he's not even there for most of the centuries
during which the White Fountain is approaching. I did eventually come up
with some answers. I can't cite texts from the book in support of them,
though; they just make more sense than anything else I've been able to
come up with.  (Peter Wright, as part of his theory that the "religious"
aspects of _Book_ and _Urth_ are conscious deceptions put forth by the
Hierogrammates to hide their self-seeking motives, argues that Severian is
made to "bring" the New Sun to convince the people of Urth that their
destruction is part of the Increate's plan.  I don't agree with this
theory, but as will be seen it influenced my own.)

First of all, the White Fountain does not need to be guided by a human.
Severian's function is rather to accept the White Fountain on behalf of
Urth.  Since the New Sun's coming will kill nearly all of Urth's current
population, the Hierogrammates feel themselves morally obligated to get
the permission of a representative of Urth before sending it.  This is why
it has to be an Autarch: because, as Severian says a couple of times, the
Autarch is the only inhabitant of Urth who is responsible for the
well-being of Urth as a whole.

As for why Severian in particular, I'm not entirely sure about this.  It
may have something to do with the battle royal between the aquastors and
the sailors, whose role I'm not clear on.  But I'm inclined to think that
the real answer is that Severian is more likely than the other candidates,
not to guide the White Fountain successfully, but to accept it in the
first place.  The Hierogrammates may well have foreseen that had Ymar or
the old Autarch been told of the consequences of the New Sun (as they
would have to have been had they passed their "trials"), they
would have turned it down, rather than assume the burden of responsibility
for those millions of deaths.  Severian, on the other hand, was 
indoctrinated as an apprentice torturer with the concept of inflicting
pain for the greater good of the whole.  Though he failed to act
accordingly on two occasions, this indoctrination may have tipped the
probabilities in favor of Severian's acceptance of the New Sun.

Any comments?  Any better ideas?

--Adam

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From: Marc Coleman <marc.coleman at mwcia.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:04:31 +0000

>Any comments?  Any better ideas?
Well said.  He walks down a hallway before his examination and has to see
his "clients" from their point of view. When he killed the old Autarch and
took the many Autarch's personalities, that seemed pretty symbolic of what
comes later, once again doing "what had to be done".    marc

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From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 +0000

On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote:

> Adam asked:
> >Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth?  Why
> can't the Hierogrammates just send it?<
> 
> This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who
> serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area
> and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle.

What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes
White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give
Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth,
assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly?  Why go through
this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which
he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does.
 
> Also: > <And if someone has to bring it, why must it be an Autarch?>
> 
> Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the
> representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small portion
> of it. 

True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to
determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to
determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun.  So
it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio
"representative of Urth."

--Adam