{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/913", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 913, "subject": "A Solar Labyrinth", "messages": 15, "voices": 9, "first": "1998-07-03T20:39:23+00:00", "last": "1998-07-08T01:20:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1998-07-03T20:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of my all-time favorite short-shorts by Gene Wolfe is \"A Solar\nLabyrinth.\" And yet no one I've ever shared the story with has ever been to\nfigure it out, to solve the maze, if you will. So allow me my Daedalean\nintrepretation. (My apologies if this repeats anything similar said by\nothers--I know the story has been discussed, but can't remember details.)\n\nIt's about tv, folks. The labyrinth consisting of light and dark is a\ntelevision--maybe color, more likely an old black and white.\n\nObserve how Gene Wolfe describes it in a typical living room.\n\nIt stands \"on a manicured green lawn\"--the carpet. The various \"lamp posts\nfrom Vienna, Paris and London\" are the set's tubes or its cathode ray\nimagizer. \"The standing trunk of a dead tree\" is a console, the wooden box\ncontaining the tv.\n\n\"The maze changes from hour to hour\" (i.e., different programs begin and\nend) \"and indeed from minute to minute.\" (the screen is alway changing).\n\nThe maze/tv is also a substitute for the real world. Hence the mention of\n\"armchair adventurers\" and \"Gone, it might seem, are the great days of\nmonsters, maidens and excitement.\" Tv has its own myths as well: the\nwestern, the sit-com, the hospital and cop shows.\n\nNotice the mention of Diana, Tezcatlipaca and Quetzalcoatl, light-bringing\nentities. Compare this with Phosphor, the god of luminous dots, our 20th\ncentury equivalent. Note as well the ferver of interest in shows such as\nSeinfeld and the Superbowl--it's near religious. As is the tithe we\nfrequently spend to enjoy it, what with vcrs, large screen sets, and\nsatellite and cable technology fees.\n\nObserve as well how television can entrap--the lost being at the heart of\nthis maze is not an Athenian youth, but a couch potato. It is a \"maze from\nwhich the explorer can walk free whenever he chooses. And yet it is said\nthat most of them...do not.\" \"Most adult guests do not escape until they\nare rescued by a passing cloud.\" (i.e., we turn off the set) \"Some, indeed,\nrefuse such rescue.\" (Anybody remember the days when networks didn't\ntelecast 24/7? Does your tv have a sleeper function that will automatically\nturn it off in a certain amount of time? Anyone have a friend or\nacquaintance who doesn't own a tv?) \n\n\"The frowning figure of the Minotaur...a monster that haunts the shadows\"\nis either loneliness or boredom or an impoverished imagination (notice how\nsome children escape the labyrinth). \n\n\"Glasses help\" to place you in the maze (especially if like Gene Wolfe you\nwear spectacles).\n\nMr. Smith is John Q. Public, the quintessential Nielsen family, whose\ninterests determine maze design/tv programming.\n\nAnd the solitary child mentioned in the story's last sentence? It's the\nchild for whom tv is both babysitter and sole companion, the one monster\nwho will play with you when no one else will.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-04T14:43:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski wrote:\nOne of my all-time favorite short-shorts by Gene Wolfe is \"A Solar\nLabyrinth.\" And yet no one I've ever shared the story with has ever been to\nfigure it out, to solve the maze, if you will. So allow me my Daedalean\nintrepretation. (My apologies if this repeats anything similar said by\nothers--I know the story has been discussed, but can't remember details.)\n\nIt's about tv, folks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an interesting interpretation, and you're right--no one I know has\never come up with anything like it. One question though: what do you\nsuppose is the \"sinister element\" that Wolfe claims to have \"kept so far in\nthe background that few readers notice it at all\"? (Introduction to STOREYS\nOF THE OLD HOTEL)\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-07-05T01:53:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Robert Borski writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of my all-time favorite short-shorts by Gene Wolfe is \"A Solar\nLabyrinth.\" And yet no one I've ever shared the story with has ever been to\nfigure it out, to solve the maze, if you will. So allow me my Daedalean\nintrepretation. (My apologies if this repeats anything similar said by\nothers--I know the story has been discussed, but can't remember details.)\n\nIt's about tv, folks. The labyrinth consisting of light and dark is a\ntelevision--maybe color, more likely an old black and white." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gee, Robert, I have disagreed with your interpretations of other Wolfe\nworks but I really, really, REALLY disagree with this one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Observe how Gene Wolfe describes it in a typical living room.\n\nIt stands \"on a manicured green lawn\"--the carpet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to be the whole of your evidence that Wolfe intend us to infer\nthat area the maze occupies is like a living room; not exactly conclusive,\nI'd say. My living room, for one, doesn't have a carpet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The various \"lamp posts\nfrom Vienna, Paris and London\" are the set's tubes or its cathode ray\nimagizer. \"The standing trunk of a dead tree\" is a console, the wooden box\ncontaining the tv." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is inconsistent. The dead tree trunk functions just like the lamp\nposts, to cast its shadow to make up part of the maze, so to say that the\nlamp posts symbolize the 'works' of the tv and the tree trunk symbolizes\nits container, the console, is so arbitrary as to be nonsensical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The maze changes from hour to hour\" (i.e., different programs begin and\nend) \"and indeed from minute to minute.\" (the screen is alway changing)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could apply to almost ANY image we see not just a tv screen, in fact\nan analogy could be made between this shifting maze and just about any\nprocess that experiences or produces change. If Wolfe really intended to\nsymbolize tv here, why didn't he work in some clever reference to the\nfractions of a second occupied by the \"cathode rays\" in scanning the screen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The maze/tv is also a substitute for the real world. Hence the mention of\n\"armchair adventurers\" and \"Gone, it might seem, are the great days of\nmonsters, maidens and excitement.\" Tv has its own myths as well: the\nwestern, the sit-com, the hospital and cop shows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is talking about people solving a maze from an aerial photograph of\nthe maze, rather than by actually walking the maze themselves here. In\nother words, he is contrasting interacting with a real object (such as the\nsolar labyrinth) with dealing only with a convenient image (the\nphotograph). This associates the maze with the real world and contrasts it\nwith images of reality, such as tv." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Notice the mention of Diana, Tezcatlipaca and Quetzalcoatl, light-bringing\nentities. Compare this with Phosphor, the god of luminous dots, our 20th\ncentury equivalent. Note as well the ferver of interest in shows such as\nSeinfeld and the Superbowl--it's near religious. As is the tithe we\nfrequently spend to enjoy it, what with vcrs, large screen sets, and\nsatellite and cable technology fees." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a maze made up of *light* and shadow; it seems only natural to use\nstatutes of light-bringing deities to cast shadows that make up part of the\nmaze barriers. It's the kind of ironic wit that Wolfe often employs through\nhis characters.\n\nYour attempt to equate the inclusion of a few gods/goddesses that very few\npeople worship these days (at least among tv viewers) in the maze with the\nadmittedly almost religious frenzy with which many tv viewers treat the\nmedium rings false." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Observe as well how television can entrap--the lost being at the heart of\nthis maze is not an Athenian youth, but a couch potato. It is a \"maze from\nwhich the explorer can walk free whenever he chooses. And yet it is said\nthat most of them...do not.\" \"Most adult guests do not escape until they\nare rescued by a passing cloud.\" (i.e., we turn off the set) \"Some, indeed,\nrefuse such rescue.\" (Anybody remember the days when networks didn't\ntelecast 24/7? Does your tv have a sleeper function that will automatically\nturn it off in a certain amount of time? Anyone have a friend or\nacquaintance who doesn't own a tv?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly won't argue that tv can entrap, but the more apt and more often\nused parallel is with drugs and addiction. The oddity in the passages you\nquote is the qualification \"adult\". In my experience children are as likely\nto be entrapped by tv as adults, if not much more so. If you can come up\nwith a convincing reason that this distinction should be made if Wolfe\nreally means to symbolize tv by the solar labyrinth, then it would\ncertainly help your case, but I don't believe you can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The frowning figure of the Minotaur...a monster that haunts the shadows\"\nis either loneliness or boredom or an impoverished imagination (notice how\nsome children escape the labyrinth)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, an inconsistency. Why should the Minotaur be associated only with\nthe shadows of the maze and not its light if it is meant to symbolize the\ndeleterious effects of television (symbolized, you say, by the whole maze,\nlight and shadow alike)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Glasses help\" to place you in the maze (especially if like Gene Wolfe you\nwear spectacles)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Glasses help you see, if you need them, whether you are watching tv or\nparticipating in any real activity such as walking a maze." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr. Smith is John Q. Public, the quintessential Nielsen family, whose\ninterests determine maze design/tv programming." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Smith, being the maze's designer, seems quite un-Nielsen-like in his\ncreativity and lack of passivity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the solitary child mentioned in the story's last sentence? It's the\nchild for whom tv is both babysitter and sole companion, the one monster\nwho will play with you when no one else will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This last paragraph seems just SO wrong headed to me that it is the real\nreason I decided to refute your whole analysis. First of all, the child is\nplaying with Mr. Smith, so is he also supposed to represent tv as well as\nthe maze? Again, when has anyone seen a group of children watching tv lose\ninterest one by one and drift away until only one poor pathetic soul\ncontinues to watch? Certainly it happens, but with tv it's the exception\nwhile with the maze it's the rule.\n\nSolving the solar labyrinth is *difficult*, it takes *mental effort*; this\nis why most of the kids give up. Whereas the essence of tv is its\neffortlessness; it offers no challenge, you don't have to think at all.\n\nThe one point I will concede to your analysis is that it does immediately\nexplain Wolfe's mysterious comments about the sinister aspects of the story\nthat are so far in the background that most people don't notice them. You\nstate as much in the exchange below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason Voegele wrote:\nThis is an interesting interpretation, and you're right--no one I know has\never come up with anything like it. One question though: what do you\nsuppose is the \"sinister element\" that Wolfe claims to have \"kept so far in\nthe background that few readers notice it at all\"? (Introduction to STOREYS\nOF THE OLD HOTEL)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Robert Borski replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it was pretty much how tv insidiously takes over some people's\nlives; i.e., we become so enchanted by the maze, we're reluctant to leave\nand thus will always be vicarious \"armchair adventurers\" rather than actual\nparticipants in life. I find this notion scary, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't explain what Wolfe means by this, but I can't accept your\nexplanation as I'm sure I've made all too plain. One thing I did notice on\nrereading \"A Solar Labyrinth\" to prepare this response is that when Mr.\nSmith and the solitary child are \"playing in the sunshine\" at the end of\nthe story it is approaching noon, at which time the maze will be insoluble.\nWhy the maze should be insoluble when the shadows are shortest I don't\nknow, but the child will be trapped and perhaps the Minotaur can pounce at\nthis point. I have always associated Mr. Smith with the Minotaur, although\nI can give no textual evidence for this.\n\nIn _The Multimedia Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_ (CD-ROM) John Clute and\nPeter Nicholls state quite baldly \"'A Solar Labyrinth' (1983) was a\nmetafiction about the entire Book [of the New Sun].\" Does anyone know if\ntheir thinking on this point derived from any support Wolfe might have\ngiven this idea?\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mary whalen", "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1998-07-05T00:29:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nWhen I saw the debate about A Solar Labyrinth, I reread it, keeping\nthe previous discussions in mind. It seems to be about books (or\nfantasy books), rather than television.\n\nAt the beginning, the narrator says that few mazes are now built, and\nthose that are are built of cheap and unoriginal material. This seems\n to be a comment on the quality and number of enjoyable (or SF/F) books.\n\nThe things that the maze is built of are the elements of the setting,\nplot, etc. The shadows that the people must traverse and that change\nwith the sunlight represent the story of the book as it is read. \nSuccessfully completing the maze means you have understood the message.\n\nWhen adults get stuck in the maze, it means that they cannot\nunderstand the message of the story. Children, if they get stuck,\nknow that they can just walk away and come back to it to try again\n(they can stop reading and read it again, no one can no everything\nabout a story upon first reading it).\n\nSince children with glasses are often perceived as bookworms, etc.,\nthere is the passage that says, \"glasses help.\"\n\nThe man called Mr. Smith is the author.\n\nEvery detail here may not be exactly correct, but this was my general\nimpression. Anyone have a more detailed analysis?\n\nprion" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-05T08:51:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "William Ansley wrote:\nIn _The Multimedia Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_ (CD-ROM) John Clute and\nPeter Nicholls state quite baldly \"'A Solar Labyrinth' (1983) was a\nmetafiction about the entire Book [of the New Sun].\" Does anyone know if\ntheir thinking on this point derived from any support Wolfe might have\ngiven this idea?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RE: \"A Solar Labyrinth\" as New Sun metafiction--well the one obvious point\nsupporting this is the title, since TBOTNS is indeed a labyrinth for the\nmind, relating of course the sun. This metafiction idea also ties in well\nwith prion's theory concerning this story (i.e. that it's about fantasy\nnovels).\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-07-06T09:51:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:43 1998-07-04 -0400, Jason wrote:\nRobert Borski wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of my all-time favorite short-shorts by Gene Wolfe is \"A Solar\nLabyrinth.\" And yet no one I've ever shared the story with has ever been to\nfigure it out, to solve the maze, if you will. So allow me my Daedalean\nintrepretation. (My apologies if this repeats anything similar said by\nothers--I know the story has been discussed, but can't remember details.)\n\nIt's about tv, folks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an interesting interpretation, and you're right--no one I know has\never come up with anything like it. One question though: what do you\nsuppose is the \"sinister element\" that Wolfe claims to have \"kept so far in\nthe background that few readers notice it at all\"? (Introduction to STOREYS\nOF THE OLD HOTEL)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Minotaur hides in the shadows. But at noon, there are no shadows.\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-06T09:42:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 5 Jul 1998, Sean Whalen wrote:\nWhen I saw the debate about A Solar Labyrinth, I reread it, keeping\nthe previous discussions in mind. It seems to be about books (or\nfantasy books), rather than television.\n\nAt the beginning, the narrator says that few mazes are now built, and\nthose that are are built of cheap and unoriginal material. This seems\n to be a comment on the quality and number of enjoyable (or SF/F) books.\n\nThe things that the maze is built of are the elements of the setting,\nplot, etc. The shadows that the people must traverse and that change\nwith the sunlight represent the story of the book as it is read.\nSuccessfully completing the maze means you have understood the message.\n\nWhen adults get stuck in the maze, it means that they cannot\nunderstand the message of the story. Children, if they get stuck,\nknow that they can just walk away and come back to it to try again\n(they can stop reading and read it again, no one can no everything\nabout a story upon first reading it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my favorite reading of the story to date. So if mazes in general\nare SF/F, then the Solar Labyrinth is Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Making\nMr. Smith into Wolfe himself. But what do you suppose the Minotaur\ncorresponds to? And what of the famous \"sinister element\"?\n\nOn Mon, 6 Jul 1998, Peter Westlake offered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Minotaur hides in the shadows. But at noon, there are no shadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh! That lit a bulb in my head, although it may be a dim one. The \"at\nnoon there are no shadows\" has an eschatological ring to my ear. \n\nWhereas now some things are veiled in shadows, when the New Sun fully\nappears, we shall see clearly, be set free from the labyrinth, and the\nsecrets hidden in the shadows will be exposed for all to see. Or evil\nhidden in the shadows will be exposed and wither in the light. \n\nOnly problem is that I don't see how this fits with the theory that the\nmaze is Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Surely Wolfe doesn't imagine we're\nawaiting the Day of Resurrection in order to finally learn Hethor's true\nidentity? \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "mark_millman at hmco.com" }, "date": "1998-07-06T10:39:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Robert Borski wrote:\nI thought it was pretty much how tv insidiously\ntakes over some people's lives; i.e., we become\nso enchanted by the maze, we're reluctant to\nleave and thus will always be vicarious \"armchair\nadventurers\" rather than actual participants in\nlife. I find this notion scary, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to which William Ansley replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't explain what Wolfe means by this, but I\ncan't accept your explanation as I'm sure I've\nmade all too plain. One thing I did notice on\nrereading \"A Solar Labyrinth\" to prepare this\nresponse is that when Mr. Smith and the solitary\nchild are \"playing in the sunshine\" at the end of\nthe story it is approaching noon, at which time the\nmaze will be insoluble. Why the maze should be\ninsoluble when the shadows are shortest I don't\nknow, but the child will be trapped and perhaps\nthe Minotaur can pounce at this point. I have\nalways associated Mr. Smith with the Minotaur,\nalthough I can give no textual evidence for this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Peter Westlake (Spectacled Bear) added:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Minotaur hides in the shadows.\nBut at noon, there are no shadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The maze may be insoluble at noon because, in the ideal (i.e., equatorial)\nsituation at least, the maze disappears at noon. If its not there, it\ncan't be solved.\n\nAnd the maze hides the the solvers from the Minotaur just as much as it\nhides the Minotaur from the solvers. When the maze disappears, not only is\nthe Minotaur revealed, but he is also unconstrained by stealth or walls.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-07-06T21:59:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tNutria here. My take on \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is, as you can guess, that it\nis about religion. Mark virtually makes the point for me. \n\tA \"smith\" is a maker; He is God.\n\tMazes precede human existence -- first sentence of the story. I suspect\nWolfe might suggest that the Trinity Himself is the ur-labyrinth.\n\tAll kinds of religious symbols mark the labyrinth:\nlampposts - shed light, truth.\npillar-box - a mailbox, for the Word, for prayer, communication.\nfountains - for baptism, the Spirit.\nyawl - ship - the church.\ndead tree with roses - the rose-decorated cross.\n\tThe shadows cast by these objects - what they reveal as symbols - create\nthe maze through which human beings are to travel: human biographies. The\nshadows are the ink of God.\n\tThe Sun constantly changes the labyrinth: People have to be in touch with\nGod in order to walk the maze and not get trapped. But they have to be\nconstantly and fully in touch with God, and only one \"child\" has ever been.\n\tYou can walk out at any time -- if you don't want salvation. Free will.\n\tMost people don't leave, because most people are, one way or another,\nreligious.\n\tMr. Smith brings the favored guest -- calling and election by God, the\npoint at which God alerts a person to the need for salvation.\n\tSometimes Smith walks with his guest, sometimes he leaves the guest to\nexplore. Sometime God is near us, sometimes He seems to leave us alone.\n\tSmith explains that He set up the pre-Christian gods, such as Diana. All\nis under His control, including the feathered SERPENT Quetzalcoatl.\n\tNOBODY makes it through the maze, except for one solitary child, Jesus.\nSinful man tries, but fails. Only this Child can draw Arthur's sword from\nthe stone.\n\tAs Mark points out, when history reaches its pre-determined end, the\nantichrist Minotaur will be revealed and will have his brief hour. That is\nthe sinister element, I take it.\n\n\tI might add that Wolfe really likes this story, and there is an audiotape\nof him reading it. When asked about the stories he likes, Wolfe usually\nmentions his religious allegories. \n\nJim Jordan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Coleman", "address": "marc.coleman at mwcia.org" }, "date": "1998-07-07T08:20:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I reread it last night and I like your take. Is anybody else a big fan of\n\"On The Train\"? \"the telephone poles reel like drunks\" marc" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:59 PM 7/6/98 -0500, you wrote:\nNutria here. My take on \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is, as you can guess, that it\nis about religion. Mark virtually makes the point for me. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-07T11:17:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, Jim Jordan wrote:\n\tNutria here. My take on \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is, as you can guess, that it\nis about religion. Mark virtually makes the point for me. \n\tA \"smith\" is a maker; He is God.\n\tMazes precede human existence -- first sentence of the story. I suspect\nWolfe might suggest that the Trinity Himself is the ur-labyrinth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tThe shadows cast by these objects - what they reveal as symbols - create\nthe maze through which human beings are to travel: human biographies. The\nshadows are the ink of God.\n\tThe Sun constantly changes the labyrinth: People have to be in touch with\nGod in order to walk the maze and not get trapped. But they have to be\nconstantly and fully in touch with God, and only one \"child\" has ever been." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tNOBODY makes it through the maze, except for one solitary child, Jesus.\nSinful man tries, but fails. Only this Child can draw Arthur's sword from\nthe stone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[more comparisons snipped]\n\nMy problem with this analysis is that, if \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is an\nattempt to capture something of the Christian life in a story, then I\ndon't think it's a very good story. \n\nMazes are puzzles. Something to be solved with the intellect. The\nChristian life is not something to be \"solved.\" It's not about the\nintellect but about moral character and having the humility to accept\ngrace. I think the equation of mazes with tricky stories fits much\nbetter. \n\nI also don't think the most interesting part of your comparison, the\n\"solitary child,\" is supported by the text. I don't have it in front of\nme, but it seems to be twisting the sense to insist that the occasional\nsolitary child who sticks with the maze is meant to always be the same\nchild. And does it say that the child actually solves the maze? I got\nthe sense of several solitary children over time, each of whom experience\nsomething, possibly sinister, possibly involving Mr. Smith and/or the\nMinotaur, after everyone else has gone.\n\nMy main objection is one that I'm having trouble putting into words. When\nI read the comparison someone else made that mazes=stories and the solar\nlabyrinth=BotNS, I said to myself, \"Ah! How clever of Wolfe. Reading his\nstories *is* like navigating a maze, and few manage to find their way!\"\nBut I don't get that sense from your interpretation. I don't see what\nclever or interesting thing the story has to say about the Christian life. \nAnd I usually like the religious elements in Wolfe's stories. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-07-07T15:27:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 11:17 1998-07-07 -0400, Rostrum wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also don't think the most interesting part of your comparison, the\n\"solitary child,\" is supported by the text. I don't have it in front of\nme, but it seems to be twisting the sense to insist that the occasional\nsolitary child who sticks with the maze is meant to always be the same\nchild. And does it say that the child actually solves the maze? I got\nthe sense of several solitary children over time, each of whom experience\nsomething, possibly sinister, possibly involving Mr. Smith and/or the\nMinotaur, after everyone else has gone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere on the Web there used to be an interview where someone asked\nWolfe about this, and he confirmed your sense. That's where I got the\nidea of the Minotaur no longer being hidden in the shadows. I searched\nfor the page before posting, but it seems to have disappeared.\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-07-07T15:53:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:17 AM 7/7/98 -0400, you wrote:\nMy problem with this analysis is that, if \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is an\nattempt to capture something of the Christian life in a story, then I\ndon't think it's a very good story. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI don't know if it is the \"Christian life\" per se, but the human life. But\nin terms of the Christian life, the unsolvable maze is EXACTLY what Solomon\ndescribes in Ecclesiastes as life \"under the sun.\" In fact, now that I\nthink of it, I'll bet you anything that Ecclesiastes inspired this story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mazes are puzzles. Something to be solved with the intellect. The\nChristian life is not something to be \"solved.\" It's not about the\nintellect but about moral character and having the humility to accept\ngrace. I think the equation of mazes with tricky stories fits much\nbetter. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, it could be both, and probably is. Recall how Wolfe is \"God\" in \"The\nLast Thrilling Wonder Story.\" And while I cannot recall any other titles,\nI'm pretty sure that the Author // God motif is found in other Wolfe\nstories as well. Thus, I'd suggest that \"A Solar Labyrinth\" can be\ninterpreted either way.\n\tBut consider: If Severian is walking a maze, he is certainly going through\nmaturation and conversion in his life. If \"Solar Lab\" is to be tied to the\nSeverian Cycle, then it IS about the course of life, in one way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also don't think the most interesting part of your comparison, the\n\"solitary child,\" is supported by the text. I don't have it in front of\nme, but it seems to be twisting the sense to insist that the occasional\nsolitary child who sticks with the maze is meant to always be the same\nchild. And does it say that the child actually solves the maze? I got\nthe sense of several solitary children over time, each of whom experience\nsomething, possibly sinister, possibly involving Mr. Smith and/or the\nMinotaur, after everyone else has gone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI agree that the text does not say that the child solves the maze, or that\nthere has only ever been one child. I sense that from the feel of the story\nand its overall religious gestalt (if my interpretation is correct). It's a\nbit like Frost's \"Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening.\" If someone wants\nto insist that the house in the village is not the church, that the owner\nof the woods is not God, and that the darkest evening of the year is not\nChristmas Eve, well one cannot PROVE him wrong -- but the poem's imagery\ncertainly thrusts the sensitive reader in the direction of a religious\ninterpretation. I guess that since the \"history\" of the labyrinth only runs\nfrom sunrise to noon, the fact that only one child is left indicates only\none child in the whole history. \n\tAnd, btw, I think equating the Minotaur with Mr. Smith is like saying that\nthe Ruler in \"Westwind\" might be an evil character. It's just not what\nWolfe does. In the Severian cycle, you've got both \"angels\" and \"demons\"\noperating, and they are not the same \"people.\" The Minotaur interrupts Mr.\nSmith. He is the Entity that people must escape by exiting the maze, and\nMr. Smith helps them as they walk to do so; or decide not to try; or decide\nto be rescued by the cloud.\n\tRemember, we might equate King Minos with the Minotaur, but not Daedalus.\nDaedalus built the maze, but the Minotaur was Minos's idea. Smith is said\nto be Daedalus, not Minos.\n\tBut especially, since the shadow casting objects, which create the writing\nof God (the ink of God) are all religious objects or symbols --\nparticularly the religious symbols Wolfe himself employs -- it seems to me\nthat a religious interpretation cannot be avoided.\n\tDoes this help any? What do you think? I'm open to suggestion, but the\nmore I think about it, the more sense my interpretation makes to me --\nwhich just means I need to get out more, I suppose!\n\nJim Jordan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-07T18:15:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nMazes are puzzles. Something to be solved with the intellect. The\nChristian life is not something to be \"solved.\" It's not about the\nintellect but about moral character and having the humility to accept\ngrace. I think the equation of mazes with tricky stories fits much\nbetter. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Jim Jordan answered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Well, it could be both, and probably is. Recall how Wolfe is\n\"God\" in \"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story.\" And while I cannot recall any other\ntitles, I'm pretty sure that the Author // God motif is found in other\nWolfe stories as well. Thus, I'd suggest that \"A Solar Labyrinth\" can be\ninterpreted either way. \n\tBut consider: If Severian is walking a maze, he is certainly going through\nmaturation and conversion in his life. If \"Solar Lab\" is to be tied to the\nSeverian Cycle, then it IS about the course of life, in one way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think \"A Solar Labyrinth\" is about the Severian Cycle, I think\nit's about *reading* the Severian Cycle. It's about figuring out a\npuzzle. But I don't think \"the course of life\" is very much like figuring\nout puzzles. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI agree that the text does not say that the child solves the maze, or that\nthere has only ever been one child. I sense that from the feel of the story\nand its overall religious gestalt (if my interpretation is correct). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[comparison to Frost's poem snipped]\n\nI just don't get that same sense, but then I never noticed the religious\nthemes you see in \"Stopping By the Woods\" (and which, now that you point\nthem out, seem like a plausible reading of the poem)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tAnd, btw, I think equating the Minotaur with Mr. Smith is like saying that\nthe Ruler in \"Westwind\" might be an evil character. It's just not what\nWolfe does. In the Severian cycle, you've got both \"angels\" and \"demons\"\noperating, and they are not the same \"people.\" The Minotaur interrupts Mr.\nSmith. He is the Entity that people must escape by exiting the maze, and\nMr. Smith helps them as they walk to do so; or decide not to try; or decide\nto be rescued by the cloud.\n\tRemember, we might equate King Minos with the Minotaur, but not Daedalus.\nDaedalus built the maze, but the Minotaur was Minos's idea. Smith is said\nto be Daedalus, not Minos.\n\tBut especially, since the shadow casting objects, which create the writing\nof God (the ink of God) are all religious objects or symbols --\nparticularly the religious symbols Wolfe himself employs -- it seems to me\nthat a religious interpretation cannot be avoided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the \"labyrinth=fiction\" theory doesn't yet account for the\nMinotaur. But I disagree that Smith as author/creator of the maze is\nnecessarily a benevolent character, even if he isn't equal to the\nMinotaur. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-07-08T01:20:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) A Solar Labyrinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earlier I (William Ansley) wrote (slightly edited from my original post:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In _The Multimedia Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_ (CD-ROM) John Clute\nstates quite baldly \"'A Solar Labyrinth' (1983) was a\nmetafiction about the entire Book [of the New Sun].\" Does anyone know if\ntheir thinking on this point derived from any support Wolfe might have\ngiven this idea?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First I would like to say how much I appreciate the effort that Damien\nBroderick and Michael Andre-Driussi went to in attempting to find an answer\nto this question.\n\nI certainly can see some evidence for the metafiction theory: the\nfountains, ship (yawl) and dead tree covered with roses do seem to be, as\nJim Jordan noted and as I had previously though myself, strong links to\nTBotNS. In this reading (which certainly isn't mutually exclusive with the\nlabyrinth as religion or the labyrinth as fiction/fantasy fiction readings)\nit seems to me the section on the children is strongly associated with the\nbook of gold section of _Shadow_ (ch. 6, p. 45, Orb ed.).\n\nOn the very first page of the first essay in _The Castle of the Otter_,\n\"The Feast of Saint Catherine,\" (p. 211 of _Castle of Days_ in which TCotO\nis included) Wolfe says:\n\n-----------\nIn the first volume of _The Book of the New Sun_, the old librarian, Master\nUltan, says, \"Such a child eventually discovers, on some low but obscure\nshelf, _The Book of Gold_. You have never seen this book, and you will\nnever see it, being past the age at which it is met.\"\n\n[Wolfe continues the quotation for a few lines which I omit.]\n\nAnd in the fourth volume, Severian muses. \"Perhaps I have contrived for\nsomeone _The Book of Gold_.\"\n\nIn all modesty I think we have, Severian and I. Perhaps not for any great\nnumber of persons, but for a few. ...\n-----------\n\nWolfe goes on to say that he has written TCotO because \"the next best thing\nto _The Book of Gold_ is a book about _The Book of Gold_.\"\n\nHe also strongly implies, if he does not state, that Jack Vance's _The\nDying Earth_ was TBoG for him. (For me, I suppose it would have to be\nStanley G. Weinbaum's collection _A Martian Odyssey_. Certainly it is what\nmade me a lifelong sf reader.)\n\nSo (wrenching myself back to the subject at hand) the children who like the\nmaze in ASL are those for whom TBotNS is TBoG. This makes, to me at least,\nthe ultimate image of ASL: \"Mr. Smith and one solitary child still playing\nin the sunshine\" quite charming. (But of course it ignores that pesky\n\"sinister element.\" Then again, whose word do we have to go on that there\nreally is a sinister element in ASL? Gene Wolfe's! Can we trust him? I say\n\"No!\" Or maybe the sinister element is that the kids will grow up to spend\nfar too much time on the internet analyzing all of Gene Wolfe's stuff,\nespecially TBotNS, to death and beyond.)\n\nMy main problem with this reading has always been this line in ASL: \"I have\nheard that a certain wealthy citizen has not only designed and built a new\nmaze, but has invented a new _kind_ of maze, perhaps the first since the\nend of the Age of Myth.\" At first I thought, surely GW (since, in this\nreading, Smith is GW) doesn't think TBotNS is a new kind of sf novel. I\nknow he doesn't suffer from false modesty, but really, that would be too\nmuch!\n\nBut the more I think about it, perhaps he does. And (especially after the\ntime I have spent on this list) perhaps, if he does, he is right.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }