{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/95",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 95,
    "subject": "Digest urth.v002.n020",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "1997-07-12T10:46:28+00:00",
    "last": "1997-07-13T14:02:55+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0002-0153@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Alice Turner",
        "address": "al at interport.net"
      },
      "date": "1997-07-12T10:46:28+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v002.n020",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "cephalo-\n\nI'm inclined not to blame the starship crew at all, or to look for a flaw\nor sin. After all, if you go along with the old dicta, you'll note that\nwickedness preys on innocence. Faust preys on Gretchen, the coven on\nRosemary, Satan not on a wicked witch but on a virgin to bear the\nAntichrist. Expedience is all, and part of the thrill for the audience is\nwhat cynical TV producers call WomJep, the hoary formula of placing a woman\nin mortal jeopardy.\n\nAlthough you could say that they have committed the PC crime of kidnapping\na creature from its natural habitat, and therefore deserve what's coming."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "The unpleasantness in Wolfe's worlds comes from the Fallen state\nof the world's inhabitants, not an outside metaphysical force.\nTyphon is not the anti-Outsider. Even Erebus and Abia don't\nstrike me as being stand-ins for Satan (although I could be\nwrong. I read them as just having very different goals from\nhumanity... being adversaries, not The Adversary)."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "That's interestingly put, and I think you're right. But you're talking\nabout long and thoughtful works, whereas \"Hues\" is...well, I think \"pulp\"\ncovers it. Let's see what he does with the inhumi. Already, we have found\none of them to have an extremely complex character, but he may not be at\nall representative."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": " A word of the Antichrist/anti-Messiah distinction: Hasn't the\nCatholic church declared people to be antichrists over the years?\nReally out-of-line popes, and people like that? I think the term\npretty much applies to anyone whose goals are the opposite of\nChrist's. Thanks to the whole sub-genre of horror movies that\nfollowed Rosemary, I think it's well-established to think of a\ndemonically possessed unborn baby as the/a antichrist."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I think you're probably thinking of the Reformation's tack that all\npopes---the papacy itself---represented the antichrist. Printing was well\nestablished by that time (the internet of its day!) and hundreds of\nmonographs, cartoons and drawings----scurrilous, obscene and frequently\ncoarsely funny---to that effect were circulated all over Protestant-leaning\nEurope. Islam was not attacked the same way; the antichrist is always\nunderstood to arise within Christianity. The horror movies, no matter how\ndebased, follow the tradition."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "My favorite line from this story is Kyle's response to Skips\nquestion \"Do you have a soul?\":\n\n\"...I've seen a printout, though of course I didn't read it all;\nit was very long.\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "That wonderful exchange almost makes the story worthwhile!\n\n-alga-"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0002-0155@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Ron Crown, St. Louis University",
        "address": "crownrw at slu.edu"
      },
      "date": "1997-07-13T14:02:55+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v002.n020",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0002-0153@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "FWIW, \"All the Hues of Hell\" (1987) reminds me a great deal of three\nother Wolfe starship tales: \"Alien Stones\" (1972), \"Silhouette\" (1975),\nand \"The Other Dead Man\" (1988)."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Mantis, would you mind expanding on this a little bit?  \"Alien Stones\"\nstrikes me as more genuinely hard sf than is usual for Wolfe (and would\nfit more appropriately, IMHO, in _The Ascent of Wonder\" than either\n\"Hues\" or \"Procreation.\"  As I see it, \"Stones\" is Wolfe's version of a\nBig Dumb Object story, some of the secrets of which are discovered by\nthe grizzled space captain by the application of observation and logic\n(ironically contrasted with the inability of the young \"empath\" to figure\nout what is going on).  There is a typical Wolfe riff on human/machine\nidentity (is Daw or Wad the computer simulation?) but the fact that I\nwasn't sure which was which didn't interfere with my ability to enjoy the\nstory.\n\n\"Dead Man\" is the Wolfe identity conundrum, ghost-story-in-outer-space\nversion and \"Silhouette\" I confess not to fully understand.  (are the\nsilhouettes aliens or imaginary?  How does the protagonist figure out\nthat the captain is the leader of the mutiny, or is he?  Why do all the \ncharacters have Germanic names?, etc. etc. etc)  Any thoughts?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": " A word of the Antichrist/anti-Messiah distinction: Hasn't the\nCatholic church declared people to be antichrists over the years?\nReally out-of-line popes, and people like that? I think the term\npretty much applies to anyone whose goals are the opposite of\nChrist's. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "What you say is absolutely true and underscores the distinction I want to\nmake between \"antichrist\" and some type of demonic or supernatural being.\nMost, if not all \"antichrists\" in history from the king of Babylon to\nSaddam Hussein (hey, how's that for closing the circle!) have been human\nbeings.  True, they were seen as \"demonic\" (but note the use of\nquotations).  In \"Hues,\" we're clearly dealing with some type of\notherworldly being and _that's_ why I was opposed to the antichrist\nmotif.  Just call me pedantic :).\n\nHere's something interesting (and even somewhat relevant to the topic).\nThe name \"Lucifer\" first appears in the Bible as a translation of the\nGreek \"phosphoros\" (they both mean \"bearer of light\"), which was in turn\na translation of the Hebrew helel meaning \"bright shiner.\"  It's used in\nthe book of Isaiah re the king of Babylon (not the devil).  The passage\nuses an\nastronomically-based myth of the (failed) attempt of Venus in its morning\nstar version to usurp the throne, as it were, of the sun.  As Venus is to\nthe sun, so the king of Babylon is to Yahweh.  \n\nNow, do you know what the Aztecs called Venus?  Quetzalcoatl!  And now\nback to WHORL....\n\nRon Crown\ncrownrw at slu.edu"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}