{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/969", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 969, "subject": "Cenotaph, Regency", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "1998-07-12T14:30:59+00:00", "last": "1998-07-12T14:30:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-12T14:30:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cenotaph, Regency", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 mantis wrote:\nAs I pointed out, Severian has =just seen his cenotaph=, so he knows\nthat something is afoot. Something rotten in the state of Denmark,\ner, the Commonwealth. OTOH, he seems to assume that only the 100\ndays he has experienced subjectively have passed in the objective\nuniverse" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still not sure why you say this. First, I don't see any evidence for\nit in the text. Second, he knows that since he returned to Briah, he's\nbeen bouncing back and forth in time, and (from his conversation with the\nsmall Tzadkiel in the previous chapter) that how much time has passed in\nBriah has nothing to do with how much time has passed for him, but only\nwith how far along the brook he has travelled. Severian can be slow on\nthe uptake sometimes, but if he really thinks only 100 days have passed,\nhe's denser than I've given him credit for being." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "so he would figure that Valeria is not dead of old age, but\nhe might worry for her safety as a prisoner of the warlord Agia,\nBaldanders, Loyal to the Group of Seventeen, or whoever else might\nhave staged a coup, if there was a coup.\n\nAll he knows consciously is that he has been officially presumed\nand declared dead, which is by itself a very bad omen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're now saying that Severian revived the assassin not against\nValeria, but against whatever unspecified enemy he believes has displaced\nhim (and declared him dead as a propaganda tool)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re: Severian not knowing the ship was traveling through time. Huh.\nSo all that talk about the centuries washing against the hull (even\nmentioned in TBOTNS, iirc) was just poetry that he didn't really\nbelieve?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, you're right on this. In fact, on p. 10 he apparently believes he's\nthe ship has \"passed across\" the end of our universe and the beginning of\nthe next one. But there's still a problem for your position. You say he\ndescribes his Autarchy as being in the past because he believes his\nCommonwealth is in the past, e. g. Ch. IV, p. 27. But on the previous\npage he says \"'Lune? It's the moon of my world, the moon of Urth.'\"\nSince he believes Urth no longer exists either, according to your position \nhe should say \"'It was the moon of my world, the moon of Urth.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re: Clinton in China, and other mundane examples of 20th century\ntechnology. The problem here is that, with telecommunications and\nall, Clinton doesn't have to have to name a \"temporary president\" to\ngovern while he's gone--and besides, the chain of command has been so\nhammered out that there is a vice president, and speaker of the\nhouse, and so on down to the janitor. So if (when) Clinton has to\nhave surgery to remove the alien implants, what do you know! For the\nfew hours when he is under general anesthesia there actually will be\na \"temporary pres\" in charge of the USA, running breathlessly to a\npress meeting where (s)he will say, \"I'm in charge!\"\n\nWhich is why I was trying to use medieval and mythological models.\nThe universe is a big place, Horatio, and when you go to another one,\nthat's another big place, further still." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which are good reasons why Severian should appoint a regent (as you\nassert) or abdicate and appoint a successor (as I assert). I don't see\nwhy it's a reason for him to remain Autarch, but then talk as if he isn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your regentless and successorless Commonwealth of Severian's swift\nsilent abdication is sounding more and more fascinating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Successorless? Silent? What did I say to give you the idea that that was\nwhat I thought? This is what I think happened: immediately before leaving\nUrth, Severian abdicated (possibly at the point when, he says, he \"must\ndon robes of argent,\" IV, ch. 38). He has already designated Inire his\nsuccessor, either with the title Autarch or some lesser title. And he\nexpects to be able to reclaim his throne if he fails the test, though not\nif he succeeds (though by V, ch. 42 he has changed his mind on this latter\npoint). Why Severian doesn't simply appoint a regent, I don't know; maybe\nthe Hierodules required him to abdicate as a precondition of his\n\"trial.\" This is supported by his fantasy at the end of Ch. 23 that he\nhas failed and \"would now be permitted to reclaim the Phoenix\nThrone\"; permitted, presumably, by the Hierodules. If it were his\nsuccessor he had in mind, I doubt if \"permitted\" is the word he would use.\nHe would expect his successor to renounce the throne on command.\n\nAnyway, Severian is gone, and Inire is ruling the Commonwealth under\nwhatever title. How we get from Inire to Valeria, I don't know either:\neither Inire dies, or Valeria decides she's tired of taking orders from\nsome old cacogen. In any case, Valeria takes over, declares herself\nAutarch, and after it's been concluded that Severian is dead, remarries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But still, is the main argument Valeria's =regency= rather than\n=autarchy=? I'm more interested in piecing together the events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes and no. I think that she's either an Autarch or a usurper, not\na regent. But the reason I think so is because I think Severian\nabdicated, which is an event. But I certainly don't regard it as crucial\nto the understanding of _Urth_.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }