{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/976", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 976, "subject": "Il (Peter) Principe", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-07-14T01:48:00+00:00", "last": "1998-07-19T16:35:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1998-07-14T01:48:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Il (Peter) Principe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam,\n\nActually I believe raster's primary concern re: authentic autarchs is\nthe same as my own--the brain eating bit. It seems to define\n\"autarch\" as distinct from \"monarch,\" \"suzerain,\" \"dictator of the\nproletariate,\" etc.; it also seems to figure into the equation of\n\"how one person can represent many\" in a concrete way rather than\njust the lip-service paid by representative democracy. The autarch\n=is= legion--it isn't just a metaphor.\n\nAnd thus, it doesn't matter what Valeria calls herself, she isn't a\nreal autarch. The higher ups of Yesod would know it if they cared to\nlook, and issues of sovereignity aside (though I agree with you on\nall or nearly all the points you've made--my intended point was that\n\"Conan the Nomarch of Urth\" and other pseudo-autarchs aren't going to\nbe allowed to take the Test: the only recognized representative of\nUrth is the real autarch), that the common people know Valeria isn't\na real autarch is extremely damaging to the domestic situation.\n\nI agree with you that Ymar's test was a put-up job (but he was also\nhardly an \"autarch\" in the way I've been arguing, being the first, so\nthere's one excuse for his failure right there) as much as Appian's\nwas. I'll also agree that the autarchs inbetween were told that they\nwould fail if they tried--this may be straight from the text (in any\nevent, I know I've talked with people about it).\n\nFurthermore, Severian's unusual memory might be the one vital thing\nthat makes him the one to succeed (as many have argued), but I would\nadd: \"In addition to being the cerebral heir of umpteen autarchs.\"\n\nThat two men lost their procreative ability for a \"game\" of course\nseems unnecessarily cruel (discounting all the inbetween autarchs who\nwere spared) and leads like an expressway to the Peter Wright theory\nof megaconspiracy godless godgames. However, I'd like to point out\nthat Venant didn't lose his manhood, he actually died in the\n\"game\"--which is \"overcompensation\" to one way of thinking (Briah\nvs. Yesod), or \"one greater evil does not cancel out two lesser\nevils\" (mutilation and death vs. life). (Or Venant's death was all\njust \"faked.\")\n\nRe: the rickety nature of the autarchy. I wouldn't try to disuade\nyou from this at all--it is prone to accident, just as you say. We\neven have text (in URTH) to show what that is like: the old\nautarch(s) gather up and say, \"Find somebody else right now (because\nyou are dying).\"\n\nThe Byzantine model fails at this level, since Byzantine emperors had\nto be cunning, ruthless, etc., clawing their way to the top. Whereas\nwe know that the autarchs often enough just stumbled into it--the\nPeter Principle crafts a \"Claudiarchy\" of common men and women,\nincluding second-rate scholars, farmwives, wantons, sailors, and\nartisans (V, ch. 34). (Again leading back to \"one representing\nmany,\" and \"one person embodying the common people\" threads.)\n\nAlso note: the very literal OEdipal rites of those \"dynastic\nautarchs.\" Eeuuw! (Well, you don't have to sleep with your\nparent--just eat the one's living brains. And then have them yakking\nin your head for the rest of your life--and beyond!)\n\nSo yes, yes, very rickety. I imagine Inire stepping out of the\nshadows to help along a situation that requires a deus ex\nmachina to deliver a brain-eater--that is, Inire won't allow the\nsystem to fail; the autarch breaks his neck, a scullary maid becomes\nAutarch. Unless, perhaps in the case of Valeria, if the system has\noutlived its function and has ceased to exist as far as Yesod is\nconcerned (except in the sort of \"opium for the masses\"\nUrtheopolitique sense that Wright argues it was all along anyway!).\n(Even then, it seems to fail as the masses aren't opiated enough for\nValeria's Reign--they are agitated. But I'm sure Wright would say,\nhas said, that this indicates how deeply they've bought into the sham\nreligion from Yesod--they really think it matters who is on the\nthrone and they think they won't get their hyperspace-sent apocalypse\nif it ain't a genuine autarch!)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-07-19T16:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Il (Peter) Principe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis,\n\nI was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier.\nI have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it\nadmirably clear and enlightening.\n\nUnfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole.\nIn fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as\n_Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the\n\"rickety\" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or\nmore, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the\nman destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too\nreminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it\nmakes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must\nan Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not\nas confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I\nhaven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the\nwhole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the \"redemption\"\ninvolves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the\n\"punishment\" could be dispensed with as superfluous.\n\nI'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's \"trial.\"\nWhy is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is\nit just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't\nhe told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth?\n\nAnd what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the\naquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years\nof preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that\nbattle? \n\nIn short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_\ndoesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can\ngive me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a\nreflection of my desperation.)\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }