{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/usenet/52", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "usenet", "thread": { "id": 52, "subject": "G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "messages": 17, "voices": 11, "first": "1991-07-22T18:51:04+00:00", "last": "1991-07-29T22:24:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<9107221851.AA00898@nowalls.UCSD.EDU>", "from": { "name": "Sci Eng Library", "address": "scilib at nowalls.ucsd.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-22T18:51:04+00:00", "subject": "G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm nearly finished reading Wolfe's SOTT and just noticed that it says\n\"Volume One of The Book of the New Sun\". Does this mean it goes on (an on)?\nIs our main main Severian going to adventure his way through ___ more books?\nPLEASE, will someone let me know the titles? Thanks!\n\nD.Ellis\nscilib@ucsd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul23.155157.9745@tc.fluke.COM>", "from": { "name": "Eric Yoxtheimer", "address": "yox at tc.fluke.com" }, "date": "1991-07-23T15:51:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<9107221851.AA00898@nowalls.UCSD.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "scilib at NOWALLS.UCSD.EDU (Sci Eng Library) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm nearly finished reading Wolfe's SOTT and just noticed that it says\n\"Volume One of The Book of the New Sun\". Does this mean it goes on (an on)?\nIs our main main Severian going to adventure his way through ___ more books?\nPLEASE, will someone let me know the titles? Thanks!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Darn...all my Wolfe books are in storage until I finish moving. The answer\nis YES, Severian does continue his adventures. I think it goes on for another\nthree books (that's four total), but it might be more. I believe I saw a 'new'\nWolfe book in this series the other day..._..._the_New_Sun_ I think. I know\nthis isn't much help, but I'm sure somebodyelse in Netland has his/her Wolfe\nbooks on a shelf! The title are something like this (it's been years since\nI read this series):\n\t\n\tShadow of the Torturer\n\tClaw of the Concillitator\n\tSword of the Licher\n\tOrb of.....\n\t....the New Sun\n\nThis is all by memory so sorry for the incompletness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "D.Ellis\nscilib@ucsd" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " . . . .\n . \\ . | . /.\n _____ . .\\ .|. / . .\n (_____|__________O___ . . \\ | /. .\n / _____________|->->->->->->->->->- - - * - - - \n |...../ ( | . . /.| \\ . .\n |.....|---| Eric Yoxtheimer . ./. |. \\ . .\n |.....| John Fluke Mfg. . / .| . .\\ .\n /_______\\ Everett, WA . . . . .\n\n\nDarn tootin' these ideas/opinions/views are mine...my cat only \ninfluences me during full moons!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul23.164922.11000@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "from": { "name": "Janet M. Lafler", "address": "repnomar at leland.stanford.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-23T16:49:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<9107221851.AA00898@nowalls.UCSD.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article <9107221851.AA00898 at nowalls.UCSD.EDU> scilib at NOWALLS.UCSD.EDU (Sci Eng Library) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm nearly finished reading Wolfe's SOTT and just noticed that it says\n\"Volume One of The Book of the New Sun\". Does this mean it goes on (an on)?\nIs our main main Severian going to adventure his way through ___ more books?\nPLEASE, will someone let me know the titles? Thanks!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the main features of Wolfe's narrative style is that his stories go\non and on beyond the point you could reasonably expect them to. If you like\nhis tricks, he's great.\n\nThere are four books in the series, _The Shadow of the Torturer_, _The Claw\nof the Conciliator_, _The Sword of the Lictor_ and _The Citadel of the \nAutarch_. There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,\nwhich I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful. That's all\nthe books there are in the series; I think we can count on him not to write\nany more.\n\nEnjoy.\n\n/Janet" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul23.171745.13410@cunews.carleton.ca>", "from": { "name": "Tom Hamill", "address": "wcstom at ccs.carleton.ca" }, "date": "1991-07-23T17:17:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul23.155157.9745@tc.fluke.COM>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "PLEASE, will someone let me know the titles? Thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shadow of the Torturer\nClaw of the Concillitator\nSword of the Licher" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The above are the first three in the series. Spelling is not exact\nbut close enough for government work, and since I don't have my books\nhere, I'm not sure where either of us has gone wrong, and it makes no \ndifference anyway. The fourth book is:\n\n Citadel of the Autarch" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Orb of.....\n....the New Sun" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are correct, there is a fifth book:\n\n The Urth of the New Sun.\n\nExcellent series, well worth reading as much for the story Wolfe is\ntelling as for the imagery generated by the rhythmic flow of his words.\n\n-----tom\n\n**********************************************************************\n* wcstom at ccs.carleton.ca(tom hamill) [] *\n* [] There is no vaccine *\n* Disclaimer--I don't know enough to have an [] against stupidity; * \n* opinion anyone else cares to hear. However, [] however, euthanasia *\n* given what I do know, my opinions are often [] *might* help. *\n* outrageous. [] *" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt Austern", "address": "matt at physics16.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-23T18:04:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul23.164922.11000@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article <1991Jul23.164922.11000 at leland.Stanford.EDU> repnomar at leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are four books in the series, _The Shadow of the Torturer_, _The Claw\nof the Conciliator_, _The Sword of the Lictor_ and _The Citadel of the \nAutarch_. There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,\nwhich I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful. That's all\nthe books there are in the series; I think we can count on him not to write\nany more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awful? Gene Wolfe? Them there's fightin' words. The Urth of the New\nSun certainly isn't as good as The Book of the New Sun, but a book\ncould be much worse than The Book of the New Sun and still be very\ngood indeed. Urth of the New Sun still has the calm voice and\nmeticulous craftsmanship and sense of inevitability that I find\ncharacteristic of Wolfe's writing.\n\nActually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,\nor a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel. (And I would call\nThe Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6654@pbhyc.PacBell.COM>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l DanehyOakes", "address": "djdaneh at pacbell.com" }, "date": "1991-07-23T18:31:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "D. Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm nearly finished reading Wolfe's SOTT and just noticed that it says\n\"Volume One of The Book of the New Sun\". Does this mean it goes on (an on)?\nIs our main main Severian going to adventure his way through ___ more books?\nPLEASE, will someone let me know the titles? Thanks!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay... First, informational. Then the titles.\n\nGene Wolfe set out to write a novella, \"The Feast of St. Katherine.\" It\ngrew, as Professor Tolkien puts it, in the telling to what he expected\nwould be a novel, then a trilogy. By the time he'd finished a first draft,\nhe'd sold it to Dave Hartwell at Pocket/Simon&Schuster, but he'd wound up\nwith a third volume about 50% longer than the first two. With Hartwell's\nconcurrence, he broke V3 into two and expanded some sections that interested\nhim.\n\nThis made up THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, which had always been conceived as\na single story. Thus, it's a 4-volume novel, not a \"series.\" The\nvolumes are:\n\tTHE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER\n\tTHE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR\n\tTHE SWORD OF THE LICTOR\n\tTHE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH\n\nWith an ancillary volume of essays on \"the writing of\" which grew out of\na misprint in LOCUS: THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER.\n\nThe series was wildely successful, and deservedly so; Wolfe's play with\nmyth and story in these four volumes is some of the finest in the history\nof science fiction.\n\nSuccess breeds profits. Profits breed a demand for sequels. Wolfe\nwrote a fifth volume, THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN, which is as well-written\nas the others but frankly unnecessary: it makes explicit a number of\nthings which are deliciously implied in the original novel. Not a\nbad book, but something like a vermiform appendix.\n\n\n\t\t\t[T]he literary work is not a manipulable object\n\t\t\tcompletely at our disposal; it is a human voice\n\t\t\tout of the past, a voice which must be somehow\n\t\t\tbrought to life. Dialogue, not dissection, opens \n\t\t\tup the world of a literary work. Disinterested\n\t\t\tobjectivity is not appropriate to the under-\n\t\t\tstanding of a literary work.\n\t\t\t\t--Richard E. Palmer\nThe Roach" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9517@awdprime.UUCP>", "from": { "name": "Craig Becker", "address": "craigb at woofer.austin.ibm.com" }, "date": "1991-07-23T21:13:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<9107221851.AA00898@nowalls.UCSD.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are four books in the series, _The Shadow of the Torturer_, _The Claw\nof the Conciliator_, _The Sword of the Lictor_ and _The Citadel of the \nAutarch_. There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,\nwhich I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awful? Gene Wolfe? Them there's fightin' words. The Urth of the New\nSun certainly isn't as good as The Book of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe \"awful\" has too many bad connotations, but I have to agree that\n_The Urth of the New Sun_ definitely wasn't as good as the previous \nfour volumes. Frankly, I wish I hadn't read it; this may sound odd, but\nit kinda retroactively reduced my enjoyment of TSotT, TCotC, TSotL, and\nTCotA." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,\nor a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes indeedy! :-)\n\n-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n-- \"You can expect virtually Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --\n-- early seventeenth century.\" VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --\n----------------- Y. Slide --------------------------------------------------\n-- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 --\n-- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul23.225239.22413@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "from": { "name": "Janet M. Lafler", "address": "repnomar at leland.stanford.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-23T22:52:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are four books in the series, _The Shadow of the Torturer_, _The Claw\nof the Conciliator_, _The Sword of the Lictor_ and _The Citadel of the \nAutarch_. There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,\nwhich I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awful? Gene Wolfe? Them there's fightin' words. The Urth of the New\nSun certainly isn't as good as The Book of the New Sun, but a book\ncould be much worse than The Book of the New Sun and still be very\ngood indeed. Urth of the New Sun still has the calm voice and\nmeticulous craftsmanship and sense of inevitability that I find\ncharacteristic of Wolfe's writing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops. That's what I get for commenting on a book that I haven't read. All\nI can say is that a Usually Reliable Source, who works at A Bookstore You\nAnd I Both Patronize (sorry, everybody else), advised me not to bother with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,\nor a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel. (And I would call\nThe Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. I think this is what Wolfe himself calls it.\n\n/Janet\n\nPS You're not *really* mad, are you? Snf." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul24.205552.13088@watdragon.waterloo.edu>", "from": { "name": "Viktor Haag", "address": "vehaag at crocus.waterloo.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-24T20:55:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article matt at physics.berkeley.edu writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awful? Gene Wolfe? Them there's fightin' words. The Urth of the New\nSun certainly isn't as good as The Book of the New Sun, but a book\ncould be much worse than The Book of the New Sun and still be very\ngood indeed. Urth of the New Sun still has the calm voice and\nmeticulous craftsmanship and sense of inevitability that I find\ncharacteristic of Wolfe's writing.\n\nActually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,\nor a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel. (And I would call\nThe Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree with your sentiments, and (to a certain extent) your musing \nthat the four books could work well bound into one volume, I would disagree\nwith your assertion that Urth of the New Sun is a \"sequel\". I would say that \nit is more of a commentary, explanation, or companion. For this reason, it\ndoesn't really stand to well on its own, without having read the Book of\nthe New Sun, and I could understand why people are not too keen on it. It\nis still, however, a good example of how a great writer can be good even when\nbeing \"not so good\".\n\nAs to Wolfe's refusal to touch the world again, there are a few shorts that\nare set in the same environs, one of which (the Map(?)) is in Endangered\nSpecies. If you want to see a master at his best, then you should read\nendangered species -- I would say that it is definitely one of the most\nimportant, and impressive collections of short fiction to come out of the\ngenre (whatever that means) in the last 30 years. In my own heart, only\nDandelion Wine and a few other books rank up there with this collection of\none author's short work." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul24.220142.8036@tc.fluke.COM>", "from": { "name": "Brian McElhinney", "address": "mce at tc.fluke.com" }, "date": "1991-07-24T22:01:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul23.164922.11000@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "repnomar at leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the main features of Wolfe's narrative style is that his stories go\non and on beyond the point you could reasonably expect them to. If you like\nhis tricks, he's great." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has said \"I like to write every story at the length at which it seems\nto me it should be told.\" You accuse him of instead using tricks to pad the\npage count. What tricks are these? What would your \"good\" author have done\ndifferently? What \"reasonable expectations\" are betrayed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_, which I\nhaven't read but have been reliably informed is awful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First \"tricks\" and now \"reliable informants.\" Did your reliable informant\neven bother to read the book? Finish the book? Or is said informant's\nopinion is based on a tabloid headline? \"WOLFE BOOK AWFUL. HAS THREE\nHEADS. SEE PAGE 12.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's all the books there are in the series; I think we can count on him\nnot to write any more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What did he ever do to you to inspire such disdain? Were you forced to buy\nand read his books? Is he taking precious shelf space from your favorite\nformula fantasy writer, last name of Anthony? What gives?\n\nYou can count on Wolfe to write well, and that's about all. It may *very*\nwell be surprising, strange, and difficult. But it will also be\nwell-crafted, thought out, and unique.\n\nAs it happens, Wolfe has said he does not *plan* to write any more *novels*\nabout Urth or Severian. There are already a couple of short stories, and\nthere may be more.\n\nWolfe is presently working on a multi-volume novel, NIGHT SIDE OF THE LONG\nSUN. Presumably, you'll find that news distressing. I, for one, am\neagerly awaiting publication.\n \n \nBrian McElhinney \"The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps\nmce at tc.fluke.com of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths,\n\t\t remains in my mind now as a symbol of my exile.\"--Gene Wolfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul25.183429.26778@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "from": { "name": "Janet M. Lafler", "address": "repnomar at leland.stanford.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-25T18:34:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul24.220142.8036@tc.fluke.COM>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the main features of Wolfe's narrative style is that his stories go\non and on beyond the point you could reasonably expect them to. If you like\nhis tricks, he's great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has said \"I like to write every story at the length at which it seems\nto me it should be told.\" You accuse him of instead using tricks to pad the\npage count. What tricks are these? What would your \"good\" author have done\ndifferently? What \"reasonable expectations\" are betrayed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear me, what venom.\n\nYou misunderstood me, my dear fellow. I have the greatest respect for Wolfe,\nand I love his work. I just have a funny way of showing it.\n\nI said nothing about tricks being used to \"pad the page count.\" What I meant\nwas that Wolfe has an uncanny ability to keep spinning story when other \nauthors would give up. Wolfe's narrative technique is encapsulated by the\ntitle of one of his short story collections, _The Island of Doctor Death\nand Other Stories and Other Stories._ The \"...and other stories and other \nstories\" is a wonderful expression of the way his fiction often works; he\ncreates story within story within story, and the reader simply has to have \nfaith that he's going to go back and pick up the loose ends, or else take you \nsomewhere so interesting that you won't mind that he's left those loose\nends dangling. Very often he succeeds.\n\nAnd yes, he uses tricks to accomplish this. Wonderful tricks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_, which I\nhaven't read but have been reliably informed is awful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First \"tricks\" and now \"reliable informants.\" Did your reliable informant\neven bother to read the book? Finish the book? Or is said informant's\nopinion is based on a tabloid headline? \"WOLFE BOOK AWFUL. HAS THREE\nHEADS. SEE PAGE 12.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've already posted an article acknowledging my idiocy in presuming to give\nan opinion on a book I haven't read.\n\nMy reliable source did in fact read the book cover to cover, and has read \njust about everything that Wolfe has published. He's entitled to his opinion,\nisn't he? (Actually, I don't remember whether he used the word \"awful,\" but\nhe didn't like the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's all the books there are in the series; I think we can count on him\nnot to write any more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What did he ever do to you to inspire such disdain? Were you forced to buy\nand read his books? Is he taking precious shelf space from your favorite\nformula fantasy writer, last name of Anthony? What gives?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What gives is that I respect authors who don't keep on writing sequel after\nsequel. I appreciate the fact that Wolfe doesn't keep writing Severian \nbooks in order to make money. The Torturer series, as some have pointed\nout is one whole work, a four-part novel; I don't think that Wolfe has so\nlittle respect for his own work as to keep writing books in the \"series\"\n\nBTW, who is this Anthony fellow you speak of? I've never heard of him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can count on Wolfe to write well, and that's about all. It may *very*\nwell be surprising, strange, and difficult. But it will also be\nwell-crafted, thought out, and unique." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I basically agree with you here. I don't think that everything he's written \nsucceeds, however. That's not a crime; very few authors succeed all the time.\n\n/Janet" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt Austern", "address": "matt at physics16.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-25T22:33:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul23.225239.22413@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article <1991Jul23.225239.22413 at leland.Stanford.EDU> repnomar at leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,\nwhich I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Awful? Gene Wolfe? Them there's fightin' words. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "PS You're not *really* mad, are you? Snf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... I'll forgive you this once, so long as you promise not to say\nnasty things about Lord of Light." } ] }, { "message_id": "<947@cronos.metaphor.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at metaphor.com" }, "date": "1991-07-26T02:46:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul24.205552.13088@watdragon.waterloo.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "|> >\n|> >Actually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,\n|> >or a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel. (And I would call\n|> >The Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)\n|> \n|> While I agree with your sentiments, and (to a certain extent) your musing \n|> that the four books could work well bound into one volume, I would disagree\n|> with your assertion that Urth of the New Sun is a \"sequel\". I would say that \n|> it is more of a commentary, explanation, or companion. \n\nI would call it a coda -- a recapitulation of the themes of the first \nfour books, reharmonized and unified. Without Severian's return as the\nConciliator and meeting with his far earlier incarnation as Apu-Punchau,\nthe work seems unfinished to me.\n\n|> If you want to see a master at his best, then you should read\n|> endangered species.\n\nA good choice, but I would vote for _The Island of Doctor Death and\nOther Stories and Other Stories_ or _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.\n\nTim Walters" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8340@vela.acs.oakland.edu>", "from": { "name": "R o d Johnson", "address": "rjohnson at vela.acs.oakland.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-26T02:52:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul23.164922.11000@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "repnomar at leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler) sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are four books in the series, _The Shadow of the Torturer_, _The Claw\nof the Conciliator_, _The Sword of the Lictor_ and _The Citadel of the \nAutarch_. There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,\nwhich I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awful! I think it's great, the capstone to the series. And I'm\nreliable too, so there.\n\nSeriously, if you dislike the religious side of Wolfe, you might find\n\"Urth\" less satisfying than the others, as it's more foregrounded\nthere. And it's certainly more confusing (*even* more confusing) than\nthe others. But it ties up some pronounced loose ends from the\ntetralogy in as neat a way as one could want, has the usual bizarre\nand convoluted running around, a couple genuinely arresting images,\nand the usual great prose. Give it another chance." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul26.133744.7299@watdragon.waterloo.edu>", "from": { "name": "Viktor Haag", "address": "vehaag at crocus.waterloo.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-26T13:37:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul24.220142.8036@tc.fluke.COM>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the main features of Wolfe's narrative style is that his stories go\non and on beyond the point you could reasonably expect them to. If you like\nhis tricks, he's great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has said \"I like to write every story at the length at which it seems\nto me it should be told.\" You accuse him of instead using tricks to pad the\npage count. What tricks are these? What would your \"good\" author have done\ndifferently? What \"reasonable expectations\" are betrayed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa, there, cowboy -- I think what Janet meant was that Wolfe has a habit of\nteasing the reader by flashing the possibility of a resolution in the air, and\nthen whipping it away with some unforseen complication. I think that this\ntrait is by and large a device used in the Book of the New Sun to reinforce a\npoint (another article's subject), and for some readers (those who demand\nneat resolutions along the way to keep them interested) can be very\nannoying. Of course, she could have been in the middle of being mean and\ncutting, but knowing Janet from her previous posts and correspondance, I\ndon't think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_, which I\nhaven't read but have been reliably informed is awful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First \"tricks\" and now \"reliable informants.\" Did your reliable informant\neven bother to read the book? Finish the book? Or is said informant's\nopinion is based on a tabloid headline? \"WOLFE BOOK AWFUL. HAS THREE\nHEADS. SEE PAGE 12.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There you go again, whipping out the sixgun. We all depend on our friends, \nor bookstore owners that we know, to tell us about new books, and whether\nthey have read them, and whether they are good or not. Eventually you\nmanage to aquire a small group with similar tastes who all preview for \neach other; I personally know 2 or 3 people whose opinions I would trust\nmore than most professional reviewers (no offense Chuq!). Again, Janet\nnever struck me as the kind of person to shoot her mouth off -- if her\nfriends have told her that the book is awful, then I believe her. Whether\nI agree with her friends is another story entirely ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's all the books there are in the series; I think we can count on him\nnot to write any more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What did he ever do to you to inspire such disdain? Were you forced to buy\nand read his books? Is he taking precious shelf space from your favorite\nformula fantasy writer, last name of Anthony? What gives?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am almost positive that Piers is *not* Janet's favourite author! I would\nsuggest something more along the lines of Le Guin, Tanith Lee, John Crowley,\nThomas Ligotti, and others with as much brains as talent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can count on Wolfe to write well, and that's about all. It may *very*\nwell be surprising, strange, and difficult. But it will also be\nwell-crafted, thought out, and unique." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And sometimes, for better or for worse, his expermients don't succeed as \nentirely as planned. Soldier of Arete, for example, suffers greatly from\n'2nd bookism', but is still well polished. There are Doors suffers too\nmuch from the unreliable narrator, ot the point where the reader may \nsimply give up on the narrator's perceptions entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As it happens, Wolfe has said he does not *plan* to write any more *novels*\nabout Urth or Severian. There are already a couple of short stories, and\nthere may be more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about you Bub, but when someone says \"books\", I usually asume\nnovel or at least lengthy novella. I don't think \"short story\". I am\npretty sure that Janet was saying that Wolfe was not going to write any\nmore \"Urth of the New Sun\" novels, which is fairly common knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is presently working on a multi-volume novel, NIGHT SIDE OF THE LONG\nSUN. Presumably, you'll find that news distressing. I, for one, am\neagerly awaiting publication." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good for you. And as soon as you get that six-gun toting, look at me and\ndie, cowboy attitude off your shoulder, people around here might rest a\nlittle easier.\n\nWhere's the bloody marshall when you need him (Today my jurisdiction ends\nhere ...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul26.135621.7940@watdragon.waterloo.edu>", "from": { "name": "Viktor Haag", "address": "vehaag at crocus.waterloo.edu" }, "date": "1991-07-26T13:56:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<947@cronos.metaphor.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article <947 at cronos.metaphor.com> walters at Metaphor.COM (Tim Walters) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A good choice, but I would vote for _The Island of Doctor Death and\nOther Stories and Other Stories_ or _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone know if these are still in print, and if so, where can I secure\nmy copies?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1991Jul29.222433.8984@tc.fluke.COM>", "from": { "name": "Brian McElhinney", "address": "mce at tc.fluke.com" }, "date": "1991-07-29T22:24:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_", "in_reply_to": "<1991Jul25.183429.26778@leland.Stanford.EDU>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article <1991Jul25.183429.26778 at leland.Stanford.EDU> repnomar at leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You misunderstood me, my dear fellow. I have the greatest respect for Wolfe,\nand I love his work. I just have a funny way of showing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have to agree. Saying he goes \"on and on past reasonable expectations,\"\nreferring to his writing style as \"tricks,\" and terming an unread book\n\"awful\" is a funny way of showing great respect.\n\nI, however, over reacted. I was stupid and melodramatic and insulting.\nMy apologies.\n\nWhat, in retrospect, I should have stated, is that Wolfe's THE BOOK OF THE\nNEW SUN is an amazing work, full of beautiful prose, strong imagery, unique\ncharacters, and fantastic vision. It can be read and greatly enjoyed as\nfantasy, science fiction, a tale of adventure, or as a philosophical work on\nthe nature of authority and responsibility. I feel it is one of the few\nworks that every science fiction fan should at least attempt to read. It's\nthat good. If you read it and enjoy it you will likely enjoy the one-book\nsequel, THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN. It is really more of a musical coda than a\nsequel, and as such it is naturally less impressive than the original work.\nStill, it is very worthwhile because it rounds out and concludes resonances\nin the original story, while adding something of interest on its own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that Wolfe has so little respect for his own work as to keep\nwriting books in the \"series\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still don't understand how you equate respect with a lack of sequels.\nWolfe thought the original story would be a novella; it grew into five very\nrespectable books. He has stated he may write more short stories about\nUrth. Who's to say one of them won't turn into a novel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW, who is this Anthony fellow you speak of? I've never heard of him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, well, once again I was being rude. I don't see a tongue-in-cheek\nmarker, so I'll explain that I was referring to Piers Anthony. Which, I\nsuspect, most people in this group would call a low blow. Sorry 'bout that.\n \n \nBrian McElhinney\t\"You may be imperious, but the effect is always" } ] } ] }