Subject: G.Wolfe _Shadow of the Torturer_

From: Sci Eng Library <scilib at nowalls.ucsd.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1991 18:51:04 +0000

I'm nearly finished reading Wolfe's SOTT and just noticed that it says
"Volume One of The Book of the New Sun".  Does this mean it goes on (an on)?
Is our main main Severian going to adventure his way through ___ more books?
PLEASE, will someone let me know the titles?  Thanks!

D.Ellis
scilib@ucsd

---

From: Eric Yoxtheimer <yox at tc.fluke.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 15:51:57 +0000

>PLEASE, will someone let me know the titles?  Thanks!

Darn...all my Wolfe books are in storage until I finish moving.  The answer
is YES, Severian does continue his adventures.  I think it goes on for another
three books (that's four total), but it might be more.  I believe I saw a 'new'
Wolfe book in this series the other day..._..._the_New_Sun_ I think.  I know
this isn't much help, but I'm sure somebodyelse in Netland has his/her Wolfe
books on a shelf!  The title are something like this (it's been years since
I read this series):
	
	Shadow of the Torturer
	Claw of the Concillitator
	Sword of the Licher
	Orb of.....
	....the New Sun

This is all by memory so sorry for the incompletness.

>scilib@ucsd

                                             .  . .  .
                                          . \  . | . /.
    _____                                  . .\ .|. / . .
   (_____|__________O___                  .  . \ | /. .
     /     _____________|->->->->->->->->->- - - * - - - 
    |...../ ( |                            . . /.| \ . .
    |.....|---|     Eric Yoxtheimer       .  ./. |. \  . .
    |.....|         John Fluke Mfg.        . /  .| . .\ .
   /_______\        Everett, WA             . .   . . .

Darn tootin' these ideas/opinions/views are mine...my cat only 
influences me during full moons!

---

From: Janet M. Lafler <repnomar at leland.stanford.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 16:49:22 +0000

>PLEASE, will someone let me know the titles?  Thanks!

One of the main features of Wolfe's narrative style is that his stories go
on and on beyond the point you could reasonably expect them to.  If you like
his tricks, he's great.

There are four books in the series, _The Shadow of the Torturer_, _The Claw
of the Conciliator_, _The Sword of the Lictor_ and _The Citadel of the 
Autarch_.  There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,
which I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful.  That's all
the books there are in the series; I think we can count on him not to write
any more.

Enjoy.

/Janet

---

From: Tom Hamill <wcstom at ccs.carleton.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 17:17:45 +0000

>	Claw of the Concillitator

The above are the first three in the series.  Spelling is not exact
but close enough for government work, and since I don't have my books
here, I'm not sure where either of us has gone wrong, and it makes no 
difference anyway.  The fourth book is:

         Citadel of the Autarch

>	....the New Sun

You are correct, there is a fifth book:

         The Urth of the New Sun.

Excellent series, well worth reading as much for the story Wolfe is
telling as for the imagery generated by the rhythmic flow of his words.

-----tom

**********************************************************************
*  wcstom at ccs.carleton.ca(tom hamill)         []                     *
*                                             [] There is no vaccine *
* Disclaimer--I don't know enough to have an  [] against stupidity;  *  
* opinion anyone else cares to hear. However, [] however, euthanasia *
* given what I do know, my opinions are often [] *might* help.       *
* outrageous.                                 []                     *

---

From: Matt Austern <matt at physics16.berkeley.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 18:04:07 +0000

> the books there are in the series; I think we can count on him not to write

Awful? Gene Wolfe?  Them there's fightin' words.  The Urth of the New
Sun certainly isn't as good as The Book of the New Sun, but a book
could be much worse than The Book of the New Sun and still be very
good indeed.  Urth of the New Sun still has the calm voice and
meticulous craftsmanship and sense of inevitability that I find
characteristic of Wolfe's writing.

Actually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,
or a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel.  (And I would call
The Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)

---

From: Dan'l DanehyOakes <djdaneh at pacbell.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 18:31:41 +0000

>PLEASE, will someone let me know the titles?  Thanks!

Okay... First, informational.  Then the titles.

Gene Wolfe set out to write a novella, "The Feast of St. Katherine."  It
grew, as Professor Tolkien puts it, in the telling to what he expected
would be a novel, then a trilogy.  By the time he'd finished a first draft,
he'd sold it to Dave Hartwell at Pocket/Simon&Schuster, but he'd wound up
with a third volume about 50% longer than the first two.  With Hartwell's
concurrence, he broke V3 into two and expanded some sections that interested
him.

This made up THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, which had always been conceived as
a single story.  Thus, it's a 4-volume novel, not a "series."  The
volumes are:
	THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER
	THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR
	THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR
	THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH

With an ancillary volume of essays on "the writing of" which grew out of
a misprint in LOCUS:  THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER.

The series was wildely successful, and deservedly so; Wolfe's play with
myth and story in these four volumes is some of the finest in the history
of science fiction.

Success breeds profits.  Profits breed a demand for sequels.  Wolfe
wrote a fifth volume, THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN, which is as well-written
as the others but frankly unnecessary:  it makes explicit a number of
things which are deliciously implied in the original novel.  Not a
bad book, but something like a vermiform appendix.

			[T]he literary work is not a manipulable object
			completely at our disposal; it is a human voice
			out of the past, a voice which must be somehow
			brought to life.  Dialogue, not dissection, opens 
			up the world of a literary work.  Disinterested
			objectivity is not appropriate to the under-
			standing of a literary work.
				--Richard E. Palmer
The Roach

---

From: Craig Becker <craigb at woofer.austin.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 21:13:27 +0000

> > which I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful.
> 
> Sun certainly isn't as good as The Book of the New Sun.

Maybe "awful" has too many bad connotations, but I have to agree that
_The Urth of the New Sun_ definitely wasn't as good as the previous 
four volumes. Frankly, I wish I hadn't read it; this may sound odd, but
it kinda retroactively reduced my enjoyment of TSotT, TCotC, TSotL, and
TCotA.

> or a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel.

Yes indeedy! :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "You can expect virtually      Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
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---

From: Janet M. Lafler <repnomar at leland.stanford.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1991 22:52:39 +0000

>characteristic of Wolfe's writing.

Oops.  That's what I get for commenting on a book that I haven't read.  All
I can say is that a Usually Reliable Source, who works at A Bookstore You
And I Both Patronize (sorry, everybody else), advised me not to bother with it.

>The Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)

True.  I think this is what Wolfe himself calls it.

/Janet

PS  You're not *really* mad, are you?  Snf.

---

From: Viktor Haag <vehaag at crocus.waterloo.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1991 20:55:52 +0000

>The Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)

While I agree with your sentiments, and (to a certain extent) your musing 
that the four books could work well bound into one volume, I would disagree
with your assertion that Urth of the New Sun is a "sequel".  I would say that 
it is more of a commentary, explanation, or companion.  For this reason, it
doesn't really stand to well on its own, without having read the Book of
the New Sun, and I could understand why people are not too keen on it.  It
is still, however, a good example of how a great writer can be good even when
being "not so good".

As to Wolfe's refusal to touch the world again, there are a few shorts that
are set in the same environs, one of which (the Map(?)) is in Endangered
Species.  If you want to see a master at his best, then you should read
endangered species -- I would say that it is definitely one of the most
important, and impressive collections of short fiction to come out of the
genre (whatever that means) in the last 30 years.  In my own heart, only
Dandelion Wine and a few other books rank up there with this collection of
one author's short work.

---

From: Brian McElhinney <mce at tc.fluke.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1991 22:01:42 +0000

>on and on beyond the point you could reasonably expect them to.  If you like

Wolfe has said "I like to write every story at the length at which it seems
to me it should be told."  You accuse him of instead using tricks to pad the
page count.  What tricks are these?  What would your "good" author have done
differently?  What "reasonable expectations" are betrayed?

>There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_, which I
>haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful.

First "tricks" and now "reliable informants."  Did your reliable informant
even bother to read the book?  Finish the book?  Or is said informant's
opinion is based on a tabloid headline?  "WOLFE BOOK AWFUL.  HAS THREE
HEADS.  SEE PAGE 12."

>That's all the books there are in the series; I think we can count on him
>not to write any more.

What did he ever do to you to inspire such disdain?  Were you forced to buy
and read his books?  Is he taking precious shelf space from your favorite
formula fantasy writer, last name of Anthony?  What gives?

You can count on Wolfe to write well, and that's about all.  It may *very*
well be surprising, strange, and difficult.  But it will also be
well-crafted, thought out, and unique.

As it happens, Wolfe has said he does not *plan* to write any more *novels*
about Urth or Severian.  There are already a couple of short stories, and
there may be more.

Wolfe is presently working on a multi-volume novel, NIGHT SIDE OF THE LONG
SUN.  Presumably, you'll find that news distressing.  I, for one, am
eagerly awaiting publication.

Brian McElhinney   "The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps
mce at tc.fluke.com   of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths,
		   remains in my mind now as a symbol of my exile."--Gene Wolfe

---

From: Janet M. Lafler <repnomar at leland.stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1991 18:34:29 +0000

>differently?  What "reasonable expectations" are betrayed?

Dear me, what venom.

You misunderstood me, my dear fellow.  I have the greatest respect for Wolfe,
and I love his work.  I just have a funny way of showing it.

I said nothing about tricks being used to "pad the page count."  What I meant
was that Wolfe has an uncanny ability to keep spinning story when other 
authors would give up.  Wolfe's narrative technique is encapsulated by the
title of one of his short story collections, _The Island of Doctor Death
and Other Stories and Other Stories._  The "...and other stories and other 
stories"  is a wonderful expression of the way his fiction often works; he
creates story within story within story, and the reader simply has to have 
faith that he's going to go back and pick up the loose ends, or else take you 
somewhere so interesting that you won't mind that he's left those loose
ends dangling.  Very often he succeeds.

And yes, he uses tricks to accomplish this.  Wonderful tricks.

>opinion is based on a tabloid headline?  "WOLFE BOOK AWFUL.  HAS THREE

I've already posted an article acknowledging my idiocy in presuming to give
an opinion on a book I haven't read.

My reliable source did in fact read the book cover to cover, and has read 
just about everything that Wolfe has published.  He's entitled to his opinion,
isn't he?  (Actually, I don't remember whether he used the word "awful," but
he didn't like the book.

>formula fantasy writer, last name of Anthony?  What gives?

What gives is that I respect authors who don't keep on writing sequel after
sequel.  I appreciate the fact that Wolfe doesn't keep writing Severian 
books in order to make money.  The Torturer series, as some have pointed
out is one whole work, a four-part novel; I don't think that Wolfe has so
little respect for his own work as to keep writing books in the "series"

BTW, who is this Anthony fellow you speak of?  I've never heard of him.

>well-crafted, thought out, and unique.

I basically agree with you here.  I don't think that everything he's written 
succeeds, however.  That's not a crime; very few authors succeed all the time.

/Janet

---

From: Matt Austern <matt at physics16.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1991 22:33:42 +0000

In article <1991Jul23.225239.22413 at leland.Stanford.EDU> repnomar at leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler) writes:

> >> There is also a companion volume, _The Urth of the New Sun_,

> >Awful? Gene Wolfe?  Them there's fightin' words.  

> PS  You're not *really* mad, are you?  Snf.

Well...  I'll forgive you this once, so long as you promise not to say
nasty things about Lord of Light.

---

From: Tim Walters <walters at metaphor.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1991 02:46:40 +0000

|> >
|> >Actually, I don't think I would call The Book of the New Sun a series,
|> >or a tetrology, so much as a four-volume novel.  (And I would call
|> >The Urth of the New Sun a sequel.)
|> 
|> While I agree with your sentiments, and (to a certain extent) your musing 
|> that the four books could work well bound into one volume, I would disagree
|> with your assertion that Urth of the New Sun is a "sequel".  I would say that 
|> it is more of a commentary, explanation, or companion.  

I would call it a coda -- a recapitulation of the themes of the first 
four books, reharmonized and unified.  Without Severian's return as the
Conciliator and meeting with his far earlier incarnation as Apu-Punchau,
the work seems unfinished to me.

|> If you want to see a master at his best, then you should read
|> endangered species.

A good choice, but I would vote for _The Island of Doctor Death and
Other Stories and Other Stories_ or _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.

Tim Walters

---

From: R o d Johnson <rjohnson at vela.acs.oakland.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1991 02:52:57 +0000

>which I haven't read but have been reliably informed is awful.

Awful!  I think it's great, the capstone to the series.  And I'm
reliable too, so there.

Seriously, if you dislike the religious side of Wolfe, you might find
"Urth" less satisfying than the others, as it's more foregrounded
there.  And it's certainly more confusing (*even* more confusing) than
the others.  But it ties up some pronounced loose ends from the
tetralogy in as neat a way as one could want, has the usual bizarre
and convoluted running around, a couple genuinely arresting images,
and the usual great prose.  Give it another chance.

---

From: Viktor Haag <vehaag at crocus.waterloo.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1991 13:37:44 +0000

>differently?  What "reasonable expectations" are betrayed?

Whoa, there, cowboy -- I think what Janet meant was that Wolfe has a habit of
teasing the reader by flashing the possibility of a resolution in the air, and
then whipping it away with some unforseen complication.  I think that this
trait is by and large a device used in the Book of the New Sun to reinforce a
point (another article's subject), and for some readers (those who demand
neat resolutions along the way to keep them interested) can be very
annoying.  Of course, she could have been in the middle of being mean and
cutting, but knowing Janet from her previous posts and correspondance, I
don't think so.

>opinion is based on a tabloid headline?  "WOLFE BOOK AWFUL.  HAS THREE

There you go again, whipping out the sixgun.  We all depend on our friends, 
or bookstore owners that we know, to tell us about new books, and whether
they have read them, and whether they are good or not.  Eventually you
manage to aquire a small group with similar tastes who all preview for 
each other;  I personally know 2 or 3 people whose opinions I would trust
more than most professional reviewers (no offense Chuq!).  Again, Janet
never struck me as the kind of person to shoot her mouth off -- if her
friends have told her that the book is awful, then I believe her.  Whether
I agree with her friends is another story entirely ...

>formula fantasy writer, last name of Anthony?  What gives?

I am almost positive that Piers is *not* Janet's favourite author!  I would
suggest something more along the lines of Le Guin, Tanith Lee, John Crowley,
Thomas Ligotti, and others with as much brains as talent.

>well-crafted, thought out, and unique.

And sometimes, for better or for worse, his expermients don't succeed as 
entirely as planned.  Soldier of Arete, for example, suffers greatly from
'2nd bookism', but is still well polished.  There are Doors suffers too
much from the unreliable narrator, ot the point where the reader may 
simply give up on the narrator's perceptions entirely.

>about Urth or Severian.  There are already a couple of short stories, and

I don't know about you Bub, but when someone says "books", I usually asume
novel or at least lengthy novella.  I don't think "short story".  I am
pretty sure that Janet was saying that Wolfe was not going to write any
more "Urth of the New Sun" novels, which is fairly common knowledge.

>eagerly awaiting publication.

Good for you.  And as soon as you get that six-gun toting, look at me and
die, cowboy attitude off your shoulder, people around here might rest a
little easier.

Where's the bloody marshall when you need him (Today my jurisdiction ends
here ...)

---

From: Viktor Haag <vehaag at crocus.waterloo.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1991 13:56:21 +0000

>Other Stories and Other Stories_ or _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.

Does anyone know if these are still in print, and if so, where can I secure
my copies?

---

From: Brian McElhinney <mce at tc.fluke.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1991 22:24:33 +0000

>and I love his work.  I just have a funny way of showing it.

I'd have to agree.  Saying he goes "on and on past reasonable expectations,"
referring to his writing style as "tricks," and terming an unread book
"awful" is a funny way of showing great respect.

I, however, over reacted.  I was stupid and melodramatic and insulting.
My apologies.

What, in retrospect, I should have stated, is that Wolfe's THE BOOK OF THE
NEW SUN is an amazing work, full of beautiful prose, strong imagery, unique
characters, and fantastic vision.  It can be read and greatly enjoyed as
fantasy, science fiction, a tale of adventure, or as a philosophical work on
the nature of authority and responsibility.  I feel it is one of the few
works that every science fiction fan should at least attempt to read.  It's
that good.  If you read it and enjoy it you will likely enjoy the one-book
sequel, THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN.  It is really more of a musical coda than a
sequel, and as such it is naturally less impressive than the original work.
Still, it is very worthwhile because it rounds out and concludes resonances
in the original story, while adding something of interest on its own.

>I don't think that Wolfe has so little respect for his own work as to keep
>writing books in the "series"

I still don't understand how you equate respect with a lack of sequels.
Wolfe thought the original story would be a novella; it grew into five very
respectable books.  He has stated he may write more short stories about
Urth.  Who's to say one of them won't turn into a novel?

>BTW, who is this Anthony fellow you speak of?  I've never heard of him.

Um, well, once again I was being rude.  I don't see a tongue-in-cheek
marker, so I'll explain that I was referring to Piers Anthony.  Which, I
suspect, most people in this group would call a low blow.  Sorry 'bout that.

Brian McElhinney	"You may be imperious, but the effect is always