{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/usenet/57", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "usenet", "thread": { "id": 57, "subject": "What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "messages": 21, "voices": 14, "first": "2003-12-30T03:04:19+00:00", "last": "2004-01-23T22:33:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Ward", "address": "m at d.w" }, "date": "2003-12-30T03:04:19+00:00", "subject": "What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?\n\nI've read it and _Book of the New Sun_. I remember the story of _Book of \nthe New Sun_ pretty well. But I don't remember a single thing about \n_Urth_. Well I recall a few vague things about him being on a space ship \nat the begining, but otherwise I'm drawing a blank.\n\nSomebody jog my memory, please.\n\nMike" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20031229225953.13604.00001784@mb-m10.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "AnomJ7t7", "address": "anomj7t7 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-12-30T03:59:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It's been awhile since I read it,but it seems to me\nan underlying theme was that Severian was supposed to be procuring some sort of\nnuclear device from an alien race that would 'restart' the sun which,of course\na million years into the \"Urth's\" future, was dying." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20031229232949.13604.00001786@mb-m10.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "AnomJ7t7", "address": "anomj7t7 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-12-30T04:29:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<20031229225953.13604.00001784@mb-m10.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And just another brief aside...I'm not overly well read in the science fiction\ngenre,but it doesn't seem to me that this was ever a really popular theme\n(dying sun or million years into the future type stories) alternate histories,\nnear future dystopias and space operas are a dime a dozen, but I suppose this\nsort of sub-genre (if it really can be called that) would require quite a bit\nmore imagination and ability to pull off.The only books I can think of in this\ngenre are 'the Night land' by William Hope Hodgson (God-awful and damn near\nunreadable after chapter 10 or so....some of the ideas are amazing though,given\nit's pre WWI) Jack Vance's 'Dying Earth' series, Wolfe's \"Book of the new sun\"\nseries and of course 'the Time machine' by H.G.Wells. Anyone know of any other\nexamples?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87pte6ee6d.fsf@local.invalid>", "from": { "name": "Mark Jeffcoat", "address": "jeffcoat at alumni.rice.edu" }, "date": "2003-12-30T11:30:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<20031229225953.13604.00001784@mb-m10.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "anomj7t7 at aol.com (AnomJ7t7) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been awhile since I read it,but it seems to me\nan underlying theme was that Severian was supposed to \nbe procuring some sort of nuclear device from an alien \nrace that would 'restart' the sun which,of course\na million years into the \"Urth's\" future, was dying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My summary may contain spoilers. As the original post suggests,\nthough, this is not necessarily a plot-oriented sort of book.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nSeverian becomes Autarch in _The Book of the New Sun_. The old\nsun of the world he rules is dying. In _Urth_, Severian travels\nto meet an alien being who will test him. If he passes the test,\nSeverian will return with/as the New Sun (a white hole dropped\ninto the old sun's center, to rejuvenate it with new matter). If\nhe fails, there will be penalties.\n\nThe first part of the book takes place as the space (kinda)-ship \nis traveling: Severian has adventures, meets aliens, learns stuff,\netc. This part is weird.\n\nThen Severian reaches the heaven-ish kind of place. Wolfe draws\na lot on a cosmology I usually think of as cabalistic (q.v. the\n\"Tree of Life\"), though I have no idea where this structure\ncomes from originally. This part is weirder.\n\nSeverian brings the New Sun. Yay! ... But we're only about\nhalf way though the book. Severian's Grand Journey Through Time\nis next. You'll forgive me if I don't even try to recount any part\nof the plot here, 'cause not only do things get even weirder \nand ridiculously complicated, but Wolfe also shows us scenes from\nearlier books through new eyes (and possibly in new versions of\nthe universe), forcing us to re-interpret ... pretty much everything.\nThis project will expand to fill any time you give to it, but\nyou have to enjoy that sort of game.\n\nAny questions? Too bad. I'm pretty much out of answers. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Jeffcoat\nAustin, TX" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Nicoll", "address": "jdnicoll at panix.com" }, "date": "2003-12-30T15:38:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<20031229232949.13604.00001786@mb-m10.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And just another brief aside...I'm not overly well read in the science fiction\ngenre,but it doesn't seem to me that this was ever a really popular theme\n(dying sun or million years into the future type stories)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tDying sun scenarios have the problem that while it was a reasonable\nscenario when Wells was writing [and Verne would toss in cooling of the\nEarth's interior, which he felt was going to be Very Bad Indeed for us]\nthe current model suggests that the sun will continue to get brighter \nuntil it cooks Earth and only much later end up as a cooling white dwarf.\n\n\tOTOH, at some point all the stars will run out of material to\nfuse and the universe will become rather dark. I know Stephen Baxter has\nplayed with that scenario. Part of _Darwinia_ is set after things have\ncooled off a bit, although only a little as far as the POV characters \nare concerned." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\"The Union Nationale has brought [Quebec] to the edge of an abyss.\nWith Social Credit you will take one step forward.\"\n\n\t\t\t\t\t\tCamil Samson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Ward", "address": "m at d.w" }, "date": "2003-12-30T15:54:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<20031229232949.13604.00001786@mb-m10.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And just another brief aside...I'm not overly well read in the science\nfiction genre,but it doesn't seem to me that this was ever a really\npopular theme (dying sun or million years into the future type\nstories) alternate histories, near future dystopias and space operas\nare a dime a dozen, but I suppose this sort of sub-genre (if it really\ncan be called that) would require quite a bit more imagination and\nability to pull off.The only books I can think of in this genre are\n'the Night land' by William Hope Hodgson (God-awful and damn near \nunreadable after chapter 10 or so....some of the ideas are amazing\nthough,given it's pre WWI) Jack Vance's 'Dying Earth' series, Wolfe's\n\"Book of the new sun\" series and of course 'the Time machine' by\nH.G.Wells. Anyone know of any other examples?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Edmund Hamilton's _City at World's End_ is about a modern city thrown so \nfar into to future that the earth is starting to cool. They find ruined \ndomed cities that had relied on geo-thermal energy until the earth itself \nhad cooled then apparently they had left the earth.\n\nThe classic Superman story \"Superman Under the Red Sun\" also by Hamilton I \nbeleive has Superman trapped on earth in the far future where the sun has \nturned red which elmimates Superman's powers. All the people have long \nsince migrated into space, and only androids and strange new creatures \nwhich have evolved to live in the new environment remain on earth.\n\nMike" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Ward", "address": "m at d.w" }, "date": "2003-12-30T15:57:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<87pte6ee6d.fsf@local.invalid>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Jeffcoat wrote in\nnews:87pte6ee6d.fsf at local.invalid: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "anomj7t7 at aol.com (AnomJ7t7) writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about? \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's been awhile since I read it,but it seems to me\nan underlying theme was that Severian was supposed to \nbe procuring some sort of nuclear device from an alien \nrace that would 'restart' the sun which,of course\na million years into the \"Urth's\" future, was dying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My summary may contain spoilers. As the original post suggests,\nthough, this is not necessarily a plot-oriented sort of book.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nSeverian becomes Autarch in _The Book of the New Sun_. The old\nsun of the world he rules is dying. In _Urth_, Severian travels\nto meet an alien being who will test him. If he passes the test,\nSeverian will return with/as the New Sun (a white hole dropped\ninto the old sun's center, to rejuvenate it with new matter). If\nhe fails, there will be penalties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay that's the stuff I sort of remembered and its becoming clearer now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first part of the book takes place as the space (kinda)-ship \nis traveling: Severian has adventures, meets aliens, learns stuff,\netc. This part is weird." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. I mentioned have fuzzy memories about him on the space ship. I \nthink it's the fact that it was weird that makes my memories so fuzzy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then Severian reaches the heaven-ish kind of place. Wolfe draws\na lot on a cosmology I usually think of as cabalistic (q.v. the\n\"Tree of Life\"), though I have no idea where this structure\ncomes from originally. This part is weirder.\n\nSeverian brings the New Sun. Yay! ... But we're only about\nhalf way though the book. Severian's Grand Journey Through Time\nis next. You'll forgive me if I don't even try to recount any part\nof the plot here, 'cause not only do things get even weirder \nand ridiculously complicated, but Wolfe also shows us scenes from\nearlier books through new eyes (and possibly in new versions of\nthe universe), forcing us to re-interpret ... pretty much everything.\nThis project will expand to fill any time you give to it, but\nyou have to enjoy that sort of game." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That helps a little. I think part of my problem is that because he goes \nback to events from the BotNS that I confuse the events of the two books.\n\nMike" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20031230142326.07934.00001902@mb-m16.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "AnomJ7t7", "address": "anomj7t7 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-12-30T19:23:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dying sun scenarios have the problem that while it was a reasonable\nscenario when Wells was writing [and Verne would toss in cooling of the\nEarth's interior, which he felt was going to be Very Bad Indeed for us]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes,if I'm not mistaken,Wells and Hodgson were working from Lord Kelvin's\ntheories on the sun's age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the current model suggests that the sun will continue to get brighter \nuntil it cooks Earth and only much later end up as a cooling white dwarf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for mentioning this,because it reminds me of a book which I had on my\n'To Read' pile quite a few years ago that I ended up forgetting about and\nlosing in the shuffle,and that's Brian Aldiss's 'Long afternoon of\nearth'.Although I never read it it seems to me that it was about a future\nperiod (not sure exactly how many years) where the sun is expanding and the\ntropical greenhouse like environment as well as the strangely evolved life\nforms it creates.I'll have to look for this book again.\n\nBack to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that in 'The book\nof the new sun' Severian would always refer to the \"Great jungles of the north\"\nor something similiar....did Wolfe ever give a scientific explanation for this\nreversal of the Urth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael S. Schiffer", "address": "mschiffe at condor.depaul.edu" }, "date": "2003-12-30T19:26:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<20031230142326.07934.00001902@mb-m16.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\nBack to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that\nin 'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the\n\"Great jungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe\never give a scientific explanation for this reversal of the\nUrth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian lived in the Southern Hemisphere. (South America, \nspecifically, from clues in the text that I don't currently \nremember.)\n\nMike" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Ward", "address": "m at d.w" }, "date": "2003-12-30T20:34:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "<20031230142326.07934.00001902@mb-m16.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Back to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that in\n'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the \"Great\njungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe ever give a\nscientific explanation for this reversal of the Urth's environmental\nmake-up or was it something I missed? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was because BotNS was set so far in the future that the earth \nhad just changed that much.\n\nMike" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "LugoMan", "address": "rodak at space.com" }, "date": "2003-12-30T21:39:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Back to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that\nin 'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the\n\"Great jungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe\never give a scientific explanation for this reversal of the\nUrth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian lived in the Southern Hemisphere. (South America,\nspecifically, from clues in the text that I don't currently\nremember.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember one passage talked about the southern lands being made up of\nindividual islands while the north is one large continent. I guess I always\ntook it to be the eastern hemisphere. The southern lands being Indonesia,\nPhilippines, New Zealand and Australia* and the north being Asia (wasn't the\nenemy called ascians? Their system of government was kind of a take off on\ncommunism). I don't know enough geology to know if the above mentioned land\nmassed are drifting north or south so I don't know what the globe will look\nlike thousands of years from now.\n\n\nJust now thinking about it I am tempted to reread the whole series and\nimagine Severien with an Australian accent. It will probably completely\nchange the whole tone of the book." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt Austern", "address": "austern at well.com" }, "date": "2003-12-31T00:37:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike Ward writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Back to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that in\n'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the \"Great\njungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe ever give a\nscientific explanation for this reversal of the Urth's environmental\nmake-up or was it something I missed? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it was because BotNS was set so far in the future that the earth \nhad just changed that much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Simpler explanation: most of the action of the book is south of the\nequator. There are lots of places in the world today where you'd go\nnorth to find jungles. Why not in the distant future, too? (If\nyou'd like, you can assume a bit of continental drift so that most of\nthe big land masses are in the southern hemisphere.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Cambias", "address": "cambias at spahmtrap.heliograph.com" }, "date": "2003-12-31T20:38:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Back to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that\nin 'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the\n\"Great jungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe\never give a scientific explanation for this reversal of the\nUrth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian lived in the Southern Hemisphere. (South America,\nspecifically, from clues in the text that I don't currently\nremember.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember one passage talked about the southern lands being made up of\nindividual islands while the north is one large continent. I guess I always\ntook it to be the eastern hemisphere. The southern lands being Indonesia,\nPhilippines, New Zealand and Australia* and the north being Asia (wasn't the\nenemy called ascians? Their system of government was kind of a take off on\ncommunism). I don't know enough geology to know if the above mentioned land\nmassed are drifting north or south so I don't know what the globe will look\nlike thousands of years from now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Book of the New Sun takes place in a somewhat altered South America. The\nenemy come from what we would call Central America, as their name Ascians\nmeans \"no shadow\" people -- i.e. the sun shines straight down where they\nlive. \n\nCambias" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Simmons", "address": "scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us" }, "date": "2004-01-02T14:41:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Back to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that\nin 'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the\n\"Great jungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe\never give a scientific explanation for this reversal of the\nUrth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian lived in the Southern Hemisphere . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well south of the Equator, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(South America, specifically, from clues in the text that I don't\ncurrently remember.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There were a number of references to the pampas, but given Wolfe's\ntendency (in BoTNS, anyway) to reuse words for new meaning, that probably\ndoesn't mean much. I got the impression that there had been major\nre-arrangements of the continents, not dissimilar to what happens\nnear the end of EoTNS.\n\nNote also that the timescales are often over-estimated by readers,\nnot to mention Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Henry", "address": "ronhenry at blahblahblah.clarityconnectcom" }, "date": "2004-01-06T16:35:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Back to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that\nin 'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the\n\"Great jungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe\never give a scientific explanation for this reversal of the\nUrth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian lived in the Southern Hemisphere. (South America,\nspecifically, from clues in the text that I don't currently\nremember.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember one passage talked about the southern lands being made up\nof\nindividual islands while the north is one large continent. I guess I\nalways\ntook it to be the eastern hemisphere. The southern lands being\nIndonesia,\nPhilippines, New Zealand and Australia* and the north being Asia\n(wasn't the\nenemy called ascians? Their system of government was kind of a take\noff on\ncommunism). I don't know enough geology to know if the above mentioned\nland\nmassed are drifting north or south so I don't know what the globe will\nlook\nlike thousands of years from now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun and\nLong Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who come from\nthe same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans. (One off the\ncuff reference I can think of is that they drink mat�.)\n\nAs far as the time-scale of the sun \"dying\", theories of solar evolution\n(I know I'm gesturing at another part of this thread, sorry) are\nirrelevent, as it's implied in several places that the sun was\ndeliberately damaged or poisoned at some point. Best estimates I've seen\nput the action tens of thousands of years in the future, not millions or\nbillions.\n\nThere's a huge amount discussion of all this in the archives of the Urth\nmailing list, which you should be able to Google without much trouble if\nyou feel motivated to spend a month or two reading them (they go back\nmany years).\n\nRon Henry" } ] }, { "message_id": "<06tmvv8ktdn1hkqhfbvh83dorj6li21hte@4ax.com>", "from": { "name": "jack starr", "address": "*****@***.***" }, "date": "2004-01-07T03:00:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:35:24 -0500, \"Ron Henry\"\n wrote:\nBack to the original subject....That in turn reminds me how that\nin 'The book of the new sun' Severian would always refer to the\n\"Great jungles of the north\" or something similiar....did Wolfe\never give a scientific explanation for this reversal of the\nUrth's environmental make-up or was it something I missed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian lived in the Southern Hemisphere. (South America,\nspecifically, from clues in the text that I don't currently\nremember.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember one passage talked about the southern lands being made up\nof\nindividual islands while the north is one large continent. I guess I\nalways\ntook it to be the eastern hemisphere. The southern lands being\nIndonesia,\nPhilippines, New Zealand and Australia* and the north being Asia\n(wasn't the\nenemy called ascians? Their system of government was kind of a take\noff on\ncommunism). I don't know enough geology to know if the above mentioned\nland\nmassed are drifting north or south so I don't know what the globe will\nlook\nlike thousands of years from now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun and\nLong Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who come from\nthe same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans. (One off the\ncuff reference I can think of is that they drink maté.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shit, I dink mate and live in New Jersey" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William December Starr", "address": "wdstarr at panix.com" }, "date": "2004-01-19T20:58:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article ,\n\"Ron Henry\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun\nand Long Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who\ncome from the same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans.\n(One off the cuff reference I can think of is that they drink\nmat�.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How likely is it, though, that the equation \"they drink mate' in that\nculture\" == \"that culture is located in South America\" is going to\nremain continuously true for tens of thousands of years?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Henry", "address": "ronhenry at blahblahblah.clarityconnectcom" }, "date": "2004-01-20T14:35:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Ron Henry\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun\nand Long Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who\ncome from the same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans.\n(One off the cuff reference I can think of is that they drink\nmat�.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How likely is it, though, that the equation \"they drink mate' in that\nculture\" == \"that culture is located in South America\" is going to\nremain continuously true for tens of thousands of years?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as I've written before, I don't think the time BotNS/BotLS take\nplace is nearly as distant as most people suppose. Most of what happens\nin the book is pretty recognizable and comprehensible to us, and\nsuggests at most a couple thousand years have passed, at most.\n\nHonestly, I think this is one of the subtle Wolfean trickeries at\nwork -- it appears because of some tricks he is playing with sfnal\ntropes -- like the dying sun, which a close reading reveals was\ndeliberately damaged, not fading from age, or a landscape seemingly more\naltered, even tectonically, from our own (Severian might just be\nconfused with directions on occasion) -- to be much more remote from the\ncontemporary reader than it really is. Wolfe might also be teasing with\nor satirizing some of these sfnal tropes -- it really doesn't take tens\nor hundreds of thousands of years to spread urban blight down (or up) a\nriver valley, or to carve up the faces of mountains into monuments, as\n20th-c. American history shows us pretty plainly. Most of the \"lost\nadvanced tech\" in the story is hardly \"far future\" (unless one accepts\nnow-naive \"Golden Age\" sf ideas of what the \"far future\" will be\nlike) -- hover cars, ray guns, neural torture devices, rocket ships as\nbig as buildings, whatever viral technique does the memory transfers,\netc.\n\nThat's how I read it anyhow. I'm sure milage will vary!\n\nRon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nancy Lebovitz", "address": "nancy at unix5.netaxs.com" }, "date": "2004-01-21T08:49:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In article ," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ron Henry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Ron Henry\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun\nand Long Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who\ncome from the same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans.\n(One off the cuff reference I can think of is that they drink\nmat�.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How likely is it, though, that the equation \"they drink mate' in that\nculture\" == \"that culture is located in South America\" is going to\nremain continuously true for tens of thousands of years?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, as I've written before, I don't think the time BotNS/BotLS take\nplace is nearly as distant as most people suppose. Most of what happens\nin the book is pretty recognizable and comprehensible to us, and\nsuggests at most a couple thousand years have passed, at most.\n\nHonestly, I think this is one of the subtle Wolfean trickeries at\nwork -- it appears because of some tricks he is playing with sfnal\ntropes -- like the dying sun, which a close reading reveals was\ndeliberately damaged, not fading from age, or a landscape seemingly more\naltered, even tectonically, from our own (Severian might just be\nconfused with directions on occasion) -- to be much more remote from the\ncontemporary reader than it really is. Wolfe might also be teasing with\nor satirizing some of these sfnal tropes -- it really doesn't take tens\nor hundreds of thousands of years to spread urban blight down (or up) a\nriver valley, or to carve up the faces of mountains into monuments, as\n20th-c. American history shows us pretty plainly. Most of the \"lost" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about the beach where all the \"sand\" is actually broken glass?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "advanced tech\" in the story is hardly \"far future\" (unless one accepts\nnow-naive \"Golden Age\" sf ideas of what the \"far future\" will be\nlike) -- hover cars, ray guns, neural torture devices, rocket ships as\nbig as buildings, whatever viral technique does the memory transfers,\netc." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Nancy Lebovitz nancy at netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com \n Now, with bumper stickers\n\nUsing your turn signal is not \"giving information to the enemy\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "wthyde", "address": "wthyde at godzilla.acpub.duke.edu" }, "date": "2004-01-23T22:25:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Ron Henry\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun\nand Long Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who\ncome from the same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans.\n(One off the cuff reference I can think of is that they drink\nmaté.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How likely is it, though, that the equation \"they drink mate' in that\nculture\" == \"that culture is located in South America\" is going to\nremain continuously true for tens of thousands of years?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Incredibly unlikely.\n\n Today we might say that the English are known for drinking\n tea and port. Three hundred years ago they drank neither.\n Three hundred years ago they drank beer for breakfast.\n Few now do.\n\n Also, Wolfe explicitly tells us that he is using some\n English words to describe objects/concepts that do\n not exist today. Just because they are said to be\n drinking \"mat\\'e\" doesn't mean they are actually doing\n so.\n\n We might as well claim they are Armenian, because of\n Severian's name.\n\nWilliam Hyde\nEOS Department\nDuke University" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "wthyde", "address": "wthyde at godzilla.acpub.duke.edu" }, "date": "2004-01-23T22:33:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: What is _Urth of the New Sun_ about?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Ron Henry\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Ron Henry\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, really, It's pretty clear from references in both the New Sun\nand Long Sun series that Severian and the people of the Whorl who\ncome from the same Commonwealth as Severian, were South Americans.\n(One off the cuff reference I can think of is that they drink\nmaté.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How likely is it, though, that the equation \"they drink mate' in that\nculture\" == \"that culture is located in South America\" is going to\nremain continuously true for tens of thousands of years?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, as I've written before, I don't think the time BotNS/BotLS take\nplace is nearly as distant as most people suppose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Even a thousand years is too many for the mate reference.\n\n Most of what happens" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the book is pretty recognizable and comprehensible to us, and\nsuggests at most a couple thousand years have passed, at most." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Having just read the books I have to disagree. The strata\n shown in \"Sword of the Lictor\" are not going to be laid\n down in less than hundreds of thousands of years. As they\n have since been uplifted, more time must be added for that.\n\n Nor do I think the geography fits. There is no river\n equivalent to Gyoll today, nor would there be even if\n sea level were to drop due to polar glaciation.\n\n It's either the very far future, or not our Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Honestly, I think this is one of the subtle Wolfean trickeries at\nwork -- it appears because of some tricks he is playing with sfnal\ntropes -- like the dying sun, which a close reading reveals was\ndeliberately damaged, not fading from age," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Actually that's pretty obvious. And even at the time\n Wolfe wrote the book most of his audience would be\n aware that the sun grows brighter with age, not dimmer.\n\nWilliam Hyde\nEOS Department\nDuke University" } ] } ] }