{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/usenet/63", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "usenet", "thread": { "id": 63, "subject": "_The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "messages": 38, "voices": 19, "first": "2005-11-04T13:23:00+00:00", "last": "2005-12-04T19:26:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1131110580.237908.247530@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-04T13:23:00+00:00", "subject": "_The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga. It trades\nengenue magic for the magic of erudition - a dissapointment since\nWolfe's work is repleat with the latter, short on the former, and all\nthings being equal innovation would be preferred. Indeed, the plotting,\npacing, and most importantly the voice returned to Severian and Silk in\nforce.\n\nMuch time is spent away from Able in the beginning of this book, and\ninstead follows Toug. Able returns after about 100 pages 20 subjective\nyears from Skai, where he's been feasting and fighting with the\nValfather and his Overcyn children, but only a short time has passed on\nMythregar. In addition, much time is spent in Jotunland, the land of\nthe Frost Giants, and truth be told this place isn't nearly as\ninteresting as the many varied places in _The Knight_. It is cold,\nrocky, and filled with miserable people, and we spend about 200 pages\nthere. The last 200 pages are an almost surreal battle with the\nOsterlings.\n\nThe strange, revelatory Wolfe-gene shows itself much more strongly in\nthis book. There are several of the frustratingly opaque turns of plot\nand dialogue which, to my mind, only serve to alienate the reader and\nremove him from the action. At least *I* feel alienated when I come to\na full stop and ask myself, \"What on earth was *that*, and why did that\nhappen?\"\n\nThese Wolfian revelations seem to all take on the same pattern - the\nprotagonist is in one place, and another major character enters with\nsome urgent information, and is interrupted by the entrance of another\nmajor character who begins to confess something, when the protagonist\nmust call for a fourth major character to confess something of his own,\nbut as soon as the fourth character enters, the protagonist quite\ncoldly states that they wish to kill the first character, but that it\nmust wait, and finally the protagonist leaves the room to go do\nsomething, with all 4 major characters presumably staring at each other\nwondering what the hell just happened. Mix in a lot of metaphysical\nconfusion and even issues of mundane identity and you get a bitter,\nchoking draught of a scene.\n\nThis happened only twice in _The Knight_ and it certainly wasn't as bad\nas in, most especially, _The Book of the New Sun_ when any lengthy\npassage with Severian acting rationally came as a relief.\n\nIt may occur to someone reading this to deride me for my lack of\ncomprehension and inability to either anticipate these episodes, or\nfailing that, understand them after the fact. While this is possible\nfrom your perspective, it is not from mine. It is clear to me that\nWolfe enjoys createing tension from half-truths and incomplete\ncommunication, and that these scenes describe crescendos of such\ntension and are something that he enjoys writing. Sometimes peices are\nwrapped up later, sometimes not. The problem is not that, as a reader,\nI disagree with the actions of the protagonist, it is that the protag's\naction is completely incomprehensible, alien and inconsistent with past\nactions.\n\nIt didn't help that Able's voice in this book crept even closer to\nSeverian's and Patera Silk's, when it was already so very close. What\nwas really startling was that Toug's voice moved perceptibly in that\ndirection as well. Toug was Sir Able's squire, and while its possible\nin that position he'd start talking like his master, it didn't read\nlike that.\n\nI'm not sure what Wolfe's sources were for this - probably Lord\nDunsany, which I haven't yet read. Maybe _A Once and Future King_. For\nall its problems, it's a thinking man's romp through faerie to be sure,\nbut _The Knight_ was the better romp by far.\n\nReading this review, I realize that it's fairly poor as it is a first\ndraft. But frankly, I doubt I'll have time or the inclination to write\nit again, so this will have to do. While reading _The Wizard_ many\nquestions and ideas came up for me, but now that the novel is ended I\nfind that my interest has already waned and those questions forgotten.\nMaybe if I find a magical stream to restore my memory..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Henry", "address": "ronhenry at clarityconnect.com" }, "date": "2005-11-04T17:22:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131110580.237908.247530@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least *I* feel alienated when I come to\na full stop and ask myself, \"What on earth was *that*, and why did that\nhappen?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's amazing you've every made it through anything he's written... ;-)\n\nRon Henry" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9oenm15gtl149lt4p1oehgpj1e813evutv@4ax.com>", "from": { "name": "Elaine Thompson", "address": "elaine at kethompson.org" }, "date": "2005-11-04T19:55:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131110580.237908.247530@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4 Nov 2005 05:23:00 -0800, \"JavaJosh\" wrote:\n_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga. It trades\nengenue magic for the magic of erudition - a dissapointment since\nWolfe's work is repleat with the latter, short on the former, and all\nthings being equal innovation would be preferred. Indeed, the plotting,\npacing, and most importantly the voice returned to Severian and Silk in\nforce." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember reading at least two of the Torturer books, but remember\nabsolutely nothing about them except that I eventually realized I\nwasn't getting anything out of the reading. So I couldn't identify\nthe voice issues you have.\n\nsnip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These Wolfian revelations seem to all take on the same pattern - the\nprotagonist is in one place, and another major character enters with\nsome urgent information, and is interrupted by the entrance of another\nmajor character who begins to confess something, when the protagonist\nmust call for a fourth major character to confess something of his own,\nbut as soon as the fourth character enters, the protagonist quite\ncoldly states that they wish to kill the first character, but that it\nmust wait, and finally the protagonist leaves the room to go do\nsomething, with all 4 major characters presumably staring at each other\nwondering what the hell just happened. Mix in a lot of metaphysical\nconfusion and even issues of mundane identity and you get a bitter,\nchoking draught of a scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "snip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may occur to someone reading this to deride me for my lack of\ncomprehension and inability to either anticipate these episodes, or\nfailing that, understand them after the fact. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. I don't remember being bothered by them as much as you although I\ncertainly found them odd. Not standard novel technique. Which leads\nto what *I* thought Wolfe's sources were.\n\nI had tried several Wolfe books but kept bouncing off. I only picked\nthese up because several people (here and elsewhere) said they were\nmore accessible. They were.\n\n\nsnip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what Wolfe's sources were for this - probably Lord\nDunsany, which I haven't yet read. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have and I didn't get Dunsany echoes much in the reading. I got\nMalory echoes. In both characterization - or lack of - style, the way\nevents get half started then dropped/interrupted and something else\ngoes on... The non-standard-novel stuff.\n\n\nAlthough it's been a *very* long time since I've read Malory." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Elaine Thompson " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131144181.202982.264370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-04T22:43:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131110580.237908.247530@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a bad speller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:\n_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga. It trades\nengenue" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ingenue" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "magic for the magic of erudition - a dissapointment" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "disappointment " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "since\nWolfe's work is repleat" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "replete" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131144317.311808.161460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-04T22:45:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ron Henry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At least *I* feel alienated when I come to\na full stop and ask myself, \"What on earth was *that*, and why did that\nhappen?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's amazing you've every made it through anything he's written... ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's the most original writer alive. Of course I've read him, and I\nlike him a lot. My review was, on the whole, negative but then I didn't\nspend much time describing what I did like, only what I didn't. The\nnumber one thing I love about Gene Wolfe is that he encourages the\nreader to savor an experience, be it a battle or a meal or a good\nconversation. That is unique and to be treasured." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131144863.855198.223900@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-04T22:54:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<9oenm15gtl149lt4p1oehgpj1e813evutv@4ax.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Elaine Thompson wrote:\nOn 4 Nov 2005 05:23:00 -0800, \"JavaJosh\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga. It trades\nengenue magic for the magic of erudition - a dissapointment since\nWolfe's work is repleat with the latter, short on the former, and all\nthings being equal innovation would be preferred. Indeed, the plotting,\npacing, and most importantly the voice returned to Severian and Silk in\nforce." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember reading at least two of the Torturer books, but remember\nabsolutely nothing about them except that I eventually realized I\nwasn't getting anything out of the reading. So I couldn't identify\nthe voice issues you have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Able sounds much older in the second book, and has an academics voice,\nmuch as Severian's and Silk's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "snip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These Wolfian revelations seem to all take on the same pattern - the\nprotagonist is in one place, and another major character enters with\nsome urgent information, and is interrupted by the entrance of another\nmajor character who begins to confess something, when the protagonist\nmust call for a fourth major character to confess something of his own,\nbut as soon as the fourth character enters, the protagonist quite\ncoldly states that they wish to kill the first character, but that it\nmust wait, and finally the protagonist leaves the room to go do\nsomething, with all 4 major characters presumably staring at each other\nwondering what the hell just happened. Mix in a lot of metaphysical\nconfusion and even issues of mundane identity and you get a bitter,\nchoking draught of a scene." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "snip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It may occur to someone reading this to deride me for my lack of\ncomprehension and inability to either anticipate these episodes, or\nfailing that, understand them after the fact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. I don't remember being bothered by them as much as you although I\ncertainly found them odd. Not standard novel technique. Which leads\nto what *I* thought Wolfe's sources were.\n\nI had tried several Wolfe books but kept bouncing off. I only picked\nthese up because several people (here and elsewhere) said they were\nmore accessible. They were.\n\n\nsnip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what Wolfe's sources were for this - probably Lord\nDunsany, which I haven't yet read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have and I didn't get Dunsany echoes much in the reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_The Knight_'s dedication is \"Dedicated with the greatest respect to\nYes Meynard, author of _The Book of Knights_\".\n\nThe epigraph is a poem called \"The Riders\" by Lord Dunsany.\n\n_The Wizard_'s dedications and epigraphs are reversed: \"Dedicated with\nlove and respect to Lord Dunsany, the author of 'The Riders'\". The\nepigraph is an excerpt from _The Book of Knights_.\n\nThere are strong Arthurian echos, especially in the names of\ncharacters: King Arnthor and his sister Morcaine. Disiri reminds me of\nthe Lady in the Lake. The Isle of Glas could certainly be Avalon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I got\nMalory echoes. In both characterization - or lack of - style, the way\nevents get half started then dropped/interrupted and something else\ngoes on... The non-standard-novel stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haven't read him. I'm a bad Josh." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131155926.362586.111770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-05T01:58:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131110580.237908.247530@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:\n_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?\n\nJust curious (and I haven't and won't take offence if there are no\nreplies to this, either. :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Schilling", "address": "mscottschilling at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-05T02:07:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131155926.362586.111770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?\n\nJust curious (and I haven't and won't take offence if there are no\nreplies to this, either. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you want more replies, say that RAH favored the sale of automatic weapons \nto the unborn.." } ] }, { "message_id": "<436C19B5.E4AC9572@worldnet.att.net>", "from": { "name": "Konrad Gaertner", "address": "kgaertner at worldnet.att.net" }, "date": "2005-11-05T02:34:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131155926.362586.111770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:\n\nJavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're not alone; google my posts for \"responses\".\n\nI did read your review, and all I can say is, \"thank you for \njustifying my decision to not read this book.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/\n\"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface.\"\n -- James Nicoll" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131158815.278231.19130@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-05T02:47:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<436C19B5.E4AC9572@worldnet.att.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Konrad Gaertner wrote:\nJavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're not alone; google my posts for \"responses\".\n\nI did read your review, and all I can say is, \"thank you for\njustifying my decision to not read this book.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL. No my intention; I'm just now realizing how one-sided I've been.\nEverything I wrote is true, but it's by no means the whole story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface.\"\n -- James Nicoll" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very appropriate for Wolfe. Luckily, there is plenty of surface in \"The\nWizard Knight\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131158868.445102.252000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-05T02:47:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mike Schilling wrote:\nJavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?\n\nJust curious (and I haven't and won't take offence if there are no\nreplies to this, either. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you want more replies, say that RAH favored the sale of automatic weapons\nto the unborn.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RAH favored the sale of automatic weapons to the unborn." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Howard Brazee", "address": "howard at brazee.net" }, "date": "2005-11-05T03:12:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131155926.362586.111770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4 Nov 2005 17:58:46 -0800, \"JavaJosh\" wrote:\nI have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tended to agree with them. So I didn't have much to say." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131183373.953697.104340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-05T09:36:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Howard Brazee wrote:\nOn 4 Nov 2005 17:58:46 -0800, \"JavaJosh\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tended to agree with them. So I didn't have much to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Lindgren", "address": "***********@*****.***" }, "date": "2005-11-05T15:27:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131183373.953697.104340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"JavaJosh\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?\n\nReligion is sometimes a good topic, so maybe discussing his work and his\ncatholicism could be more inflammatory? Or is he just a too reasonable\nfellow for that?\n\nBest,\n Thomas" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Thomas Lindgren\n\"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline.\" -- Isaiah Berlin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131217562@sheol.org>", "from": { "name": "Wayne Throop", "address": "throopw at sheol.org" }, "date": "2005-11-05T19:06:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":: What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy? \n\n: A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?\n\nI don't have that fear at all. I *know* I don't get it.\n\n\nWayne Throop throopw at sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131217976.164753.237560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Gene Ward Smith", "address": "gwsmith at svpal.org" }, "date": "2005-11-05T19:12:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mike Schilling wrote:\nIf you want more replies, say that RAH favored the sale of automatic weapons\nto the unborn.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be a good story about twins or triplets in there. \"I've got a\nsource for some Thompson submachine guns, see, and when I get 'em I'm\nbusting out of here. Are ya with me?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131218145.536944.299810@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Gene Ward Smith", "address": "gwsmith at svpal.org" }, "date": "2005-11-05T19:15:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131217562@sheol.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wayne Throop wrote:\n:: What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?\n\n: A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?\n\nI don't have that fear at all. I *know* I don't get it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So is GRRM more controversial because people think they do get it, but\njust aren't sure they want it? Or is there more a tendency to proclaim\n\"like this book, or else\" with him than with Wolfe?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Plotkin", "address": "erkyrath at eblong.com" }, "date": "2005-11-05T20:20:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131217562@sheol.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here, Wayne Throop wrote:\n:: What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy? \n\n: A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?\n\nI don't have that fear at all. I *know* I don't get it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not so much a *lurking* fear as a fear that jumps into your lap\nas you read, butts your arm gently with its forehead, curls up, and\nbegins purring.\n\n--Z\n\n\"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves...\"\n*\nI'm still thinking about what to put in this space." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Howard Brazee", "address": "howard at brazee.net" }, "date": "2005-11-05T23:56:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131183373.953697.104340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5 Nov 2005 01:36:13 -0800, \"JavaJosh\" wrote:\nWhat is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Our favorite authors like him better than we do." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Lindgren", "address": "***********@*****.***" }, "date": "2005-11-06T11:55:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131183373.953697.104340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"JavaJosh\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Howard Brazee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4 Nov 2005 17:58:46 -0800, \"JavaJosh\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I tended to agree with them. So I didn't have much to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After a bit of rummaging about, I've (re-)found what seems to be an\nactive mailing list on Wolfe's work.\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/\n\nI think I'll go dig out what they thought about The Knight / The\nWizard myself; I just _might_ have missed a couple of things.\n\nBest,\n Thomas" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Thomas Lindgren\n\"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline.\" -- Isaiah Berlin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Simmons", "address": "scs at not.di.these.org.words" }, "date": "2005-11-07T19:00:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131217562@sheol.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wayne wrote on 11/05/05 at 19:06:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ":: What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ": A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't have that fear at all. I *know* I don't get it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some reason, people who don't get Wolfe seem to realize that there's\nsomething in there that they just didn't get. Most other authors that\npeople don't get they don't get that they don't get." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A\nlaugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the\nmaterial world is to get more material. \n From \"Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Lindgren", "address": "***********@*****.***" }, "date": "2005-11-07T23:17:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Steve Simmons writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For some reason, people who don't get Wolfe seem to realize that there's\nsomething in there that they just didn't get. Most other authors that\npeople don't get they don't get that they don't get." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You wouldn't be looking for a post as Secretary of Defense, would you?\n\nBest,\n Thomas" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Thomas Lindgren\n\"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline.\" -- Isaiah Berlin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Schilling", "address": "mscottschilling at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-07T23:21:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Thomas Lindgren\" <***********@*****.***> wrote in message \nnews:m3pspc549s.fsf at localhost.localdomain..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steve Simmons writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For some reason, people who don't get Wolfe seem to realize that there's\nsomething in there that they just didn't get. Most other authors that\npeople don't get they don't get that they don't get." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wouldn't be looking for a post as Secretary of Defense, would you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dammit, you evaluate an author with the preconceptions you've got, not the \nones you'd like to have." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131406819.578880.176180@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-07T23:40:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steve Simmons wrote:\nWayne wrote on 11/05/05 at 19:06:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ":: What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ": A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't have that fear at all. I *know* I don't get it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For some reason, people who don't get Wolfe seem to realize that there's\nsomething in there that they just didn't get. Most other authors that\npeople don't get they don't get that they don't get." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, there is that nagging feeling that whenever a character is\nbehaving in some unfathomably random way that this was a fully\nintentional breach. Wolfe's tight control of the narration gives that\nfeeling, and the fact that, if you read his stories twice you realize\nhow incredibly detailed his knowledge of the world was even at the\nbeginning. He is the master of subtle forshadowing.\n\nThat and the fact that he so patiently scans a relatively narrow\nviewpoint over his invariably rich worlds makes you feel like he's in\ncontrol, at least of himself. Most other authors can't contain their\nexuberance and, like an inexperienced stripper, show everything much\ntoo fast. Wofe is patient. And now I think that was an unfortunate\nsimile. :)\n\nBut I believe that you can't hide behind reputation forever, and that\neven the best writers flub their scenes. :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131407559.246092.94630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-07T23:52:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131218145.536944.299810@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Ward Smith wrote:\nWayne Throop wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ":: What is it about Wolfe that fails to spark controversy?\n\n: A lurking fear that one has failed to Get It?\n\nI don't have that fear at all. I *know* I don't get it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So is GRRM more controversial because people think they do get it, but\njust aren't sure they want it? Or is there more a tendency to proclaim\n\"like this book, or else\" with him than with Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what GRRM controversy of which you speak, but he's a much\ndifferent writer. He takes the almost-omniscient-loose-following POV\ncharacter approach, which is a more common voice and so more\naccessible. GRRM is artistically very straightforward; the problems are\nmostly matters of plot. Wolfe seems to enjoy the fantasy genre in its\nown right, but, like Herbert, seems to be concerned about issues of\nconciousness, identity, and imagination (this is much plainer in \"The\nWizard Knight\" than his previous works). Wolfe's work has a dream-like\npatina over it - the narrator sounds like he doesn't talk about things\nnot because he didn't think of them, but because they really don't\nmatter.\n\nGRRM's _Song_ is a much plainer tale of simply motivated creatures\ninteracting with each other in a complicated game of thrones. He\ndoesn't tweak your perspective like Wolfe does. There are more concrete\nthings to talk about with Martin. There are plenty of questions about\n\"The Wizard Knight\", such as, what really happened to Able the first\ntime he went to Aelfrice, who is Parka and why was Able so\nunquestioning about the whole thing? What did his bowstring signify?\nHow come young Able was so violent, albeit in an amiable way? How did\nhe adapt so easily to Mythregar? _Song_ questions tend to be more of\nthe \"who's gonna kill whom and when\" sort." } ] }, { "message_id": "<436FE8FA.79611C1@optonline.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Wheeler", "address": "acwheele at optonline.com" }, "date": "2005-11-07T23:53:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131155926.362586.111770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:\n\nJavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?\n\nJust curious (and I haven't and won't take offence if there are no\nreplies to this, either. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had a reaction somewhat similar to yours. I read the two novels\nback-to-back, though, and I've wondered since then if the fact that\n_Knight_ was set in type and _Wizard_ was in manuscript made it feel\nlike the latter was slower and less interesting. But you seem to have\nhad a very similar reading experience, without the format issues.\n\nAs you say, Wolfe is the master of the scene in which things almost\nhappen, but don't quite do so. Sometimes (as in \"Book of the New Sun\" or\n\"Book of the Short Sun\"), the things that *don't* happen are important\nand clear and stunning. I didn't feel that way with _Wizard_; I got lost\nwith Young Knight #1 narrating the stories of Young Knight #2 and Young\nKnight #3, and I thought, as you seem to, that the extended\nmurder-mystery plot among the giants didn't help anything.\n\nIt's a shame, because I *really* wanted the sequel to _The Knight_ I\nthought I was about to get." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Wheeler\n-- \nI have fallen to the dark side:\nhttp://antickmusings.blogspot.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Plotkin", "address": "erkyrath at eblong.com" }, "date": "2005-11-08T00:24:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131407559.246092.94630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here, JavaJosh wrote:\n\nI'm not sure what GRRM controversy of which you speak, but he's a much\ndifferent writer. He takes the almost-omniscient-loose-following POV\ncharacter approach, which is a more common voice and so more\naccessible. GRRM is artistically very straightforward; the problems are\nmostly matters of plot. Wolfe seems to enjoy the fantasy genre in its\nown right, but, like Herbert, seems to be concerned about issues of\nconciousness, identity, and imagination (this is much plainer in \"The\nWizard Knight\" than his previous works). Wolfe's work has a dream-like\npatina over it - the narrator sounds like he doesn't talk about things\nnot because he didn't think of them, but because they really don't\nmatter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My one-line review of _The Wizard Knight_ is: Having mastered and then\ndeconstructed the idea of the unreliable narrator, Wolfe has now moved\non to the *incompetent* narrator.\n\n--Z\n\n\"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves...\"\n*\nI'm still thinking about what to put in this space." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "(unknown)", "address": "" }, "date": "2005-11-08T01:23:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131155926.362586.111770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Wizard_ is volume two of \"The Wizard Knight\" saga...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to admit that I'm a little suprised that these reviews haven't\nsparked more conversation. Is the subject uninteresting? Is my review\nreally that badly done that it doesn't inspire any critical thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just been too busy.\nNot only too busy to comment on anything extensively, but actually too \nbusy to finish my copy of _Wizard_. But over Thanksgiving, I'm planning \non rereading _Knight_ and then diving into _Wizard._" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "John S. Novak, III\nThe Humblest Man On The Net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "viv", "address": "darkbloom at ru.com" }, "date": "2005-11-08T02:01:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<436FE8FA.79611C1@optonline.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:53:28 -0500, Andrew Wheeler\n wrote:\nAs you say, Wolfe is the master of the scene in which things almost\nhappen, but don't quite do so. Sometimes (as in \"Book of the New Sun\" or\n\"Book of the Short Sun\"), the things that *don't* happen are important\nand clear and stunning. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure what you're trying to say here.\n\nDo you mean certain events or plot threads never materialize the way\nwe anticipate or that they \"occur\" off-stage, behind the main\nnarrative, like a puppeteer's hand movements, and we must therefore\ninfer them?\n\nAn example perhaps would be edifying...\n\nviv" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Hutchinson", "address": "servoid at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-08T03:44:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike Schilling says..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Lindgren wrote ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Steve Simmons writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For some reason, people who don't get Wolfe seem to realize that there's\nsomething in there that they just didn't get. Most other authors that\npeople don't get they don't get that they don't get." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You wouldn't be looking for a post as Secretary of Defense, would you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dammit, you evaluate an author with the preconceptions you've got, not the \nones you'd like to have. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did we read the novel? Yes. \nWas there something there to be gotten? Yes. \nDid we get it? No. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Robert Hutchinson | \"Audiences won't soon forget when the \n | thing-we-didn't-know-what-it-was was put into\n | the helicopter by the guy we didn't know.\"\n | -- Servo, MST3K, 810, Giant Spider Invasion" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131429004.524418.166490@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-08T05:50:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Plotkin wrote:\nHere, JavaJosh wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what GRRM controversy of which you speak, but he's a much\ndifferent writer. He takes the almost-omniscient-loose-following POV\ncharacter approach, which is a more common voice and so more\naccessible. GRRM is artistically very straightforward; the problems are\nmostly matters of plot. Wolfe seems to enjoy the fantasy genre in its\nown right, but, like Herbert, seems to be concerned about issues of\nconciousness, identity, and imagination (this is much plainer in \"The\nWizard Knight\" than his previous works). Wolfe's work has a dream-like\npatina over it - the narrator sounds like he doesn't talk about things\nnot because he didn't think of them, but because they really don't\nmatter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My one-line review of _The Wizard Knight_ is: Having mastered and then\ndeconstructed the idea of the unreliable narrator, Wolfe has now moved\non to the *incompetent* narrator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's funny. Inaccurate, but funny.\n\nI think the key is in the epigraph poem by Lord Dunsany. These things\nexist only in the twilight of dream, and the Wizard Knight is half\ndreaming during his adventure and indeed while penning his experiences." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131431189.729910.179260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-08T06:26:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "viv wrote:\nOn Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:53:28 -0500, Andrew Wheeler\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As you say, Wolfe is the master of the scene in which things almost\nhappen, but don't quite do so. Sometimes (as in \"Book of the New Sun\" or\n\"Book of the Short Sun\"), the things that *don't* happen are important\nand clear and stunning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure what you're trying to say here.\n\nDo you mean certain events or plot threads never materialize the way\nwe anticipate or that they \"occur\" off-stage, behind the main\nnarrative, like a puppeteer's hand movements, and we must therefore\ninfer them?\n\nAn example perhaps would be edifying..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interrupted action. As fiction readers we've learned to anticipate\ncertain things. For example, if you were to read:\n\n\"She had been aching for a slice of pie for so long her eye lids\nfluttered at the mere thought. A cherry pie, apple pie, boston cream\npie - they all swam langoriously in front of her, tempting her.\n\nBut of course there was no pie; the pie famine of '68 made sure of\nthat. The word was without pie and more's the pity. So she had to make\ndue with cake and ice cream and she tried to forget pie by whistling\ntunelessly and thinking about boys. But they were all second to pie.\n\nShe made her living spearing apricots with a dainty silver utensil made\nfor the purpose. One day at work she noticed a windowsill in the\ndistance. But this was no ordinary window sill - this window sill was\n*steaming*. And being no fool, she knew that steam in a window sill\ncould mean *pie*.\n\nPocketing her gracefully turned apricot spearer into its special velvet\npouch, she loped through the apricot grove and over the grassy hill to\nthe little cottage with the steaming windowsill. Her back now against\nthe cottage, she sidled up to the pie, wondering if the owner would be\nmad if she had a little piece.\n\n\"Who goes there!\" bellowed a deep voice from around the corner. \"I can\nsmell 'ye smellin' me pie. Begone! There ain't none fer ye, so\nskiddadle!\"\n\nTerrified of that booming voice, she fumbled with her apricot spearer,\nand with a sudden spurt of gumption, walked around the corner to\nconfront the owner of that booming voice.\n\nMuch to her suprise, the man was Maddy Mudwinner, an uncle on her\nmother's side, and always a hoot at the family get-togethers and a mad\nscrabble player. \"Maddy!\" she said, laughing, \"How on earth did you\nmake a pie? If you love your niece you will give me some!\"\n\nUpon seeing his niece, Maddy's coarse face relaxed and wiping his\nmitten hands on his greasy white apron explained with a smile, \"Oh my,\nwell hello little darling! How is the apricot spearing business?\"\n\nShe sighed with ennui, \"It's the same as ever, spearing day in, day\nout. My technique has gotten quite good. Watch!\" with that she flicked\nher wrist and pinned one of Maddy's apron strings to the rough wooden\ndoor standing open behind him.\n\nHooting with pleasure, Maddy made gestures to come inside, \"Oh, it's\nbeen too long little one. Come on in and have some pie.\"\n\n\"But uncle\", the girl said pulling her utensil out of the door, \"there\nis something I haven't been honest with you about, and I just wouldn't\nfeel right eating your pie without telling you. Do you remember Aunt\nMargaret?\"\n\nMaddy frowned. \"Yes. Of course. What about her?\"\n\n\"You never knew this but it was I who cut off her left index finger\nduring the Lemon festival of '69, you know the one right after the pie\nfamine. She never told you because she knew I was your favorite niece,\nand then when her head was crushed by Farmer Moony's giant summer\nsquash, it didn't seem like the right time to tell you.\"\n\n\"Bless your heart little one, I forgive you, of course. I've been\nmeaning to tell you something too. I've got a new love, and she's right\nthere next to your foot.\"\n\nLooking down, she noticed a mole looking up at her, it's blind eyes\nlooking up at the sun and warm wet nose brushing her ankle.\n\n\"Uncle, she's a mole!\"\n\n\"Well, yes.\" Maddy looked a little abashed. \"But love knows no bounds,\nyour mother used to say. Do you think she'll think less of me for\nloving a mole?\"\n\nWihtout a word the girl flung her apricot spear at the ball of brown\nfur at her feet. With a sickening thud, the spear stuck out the head of\nthe mole, now lying motionless on the ground.\n\n\"I hate moles\" she said coldly, wiping her tiny spear, and walked back\nto her apricot tree to continue her day's work. The sound of Maddy's\nsobs drifted away." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131465340.566183.278620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "alexey_r", "address": "alexey_r at mail.ru" }, "date": "2005-11-08T15:55:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Lindgren wrote:\nSteve Simmons writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For some reason, people who don't get Wolfe seem to realize that there's\nsomething in there that they just didn't get. Most other authors that\npeople don't get they don't get that they don't get." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wouldn't be looking for a post as Secretary of Defense, would you?\n\nBest,\n Thomas\n--\nThomas Lindgren\n\"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline.\" -- Isaiah Berlin" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, he is clearly already contracted for the Prime Minister of\nRussia :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0whk6fjgd48.fsf@rescomp.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Brian Palmer", "address": "bpalmer at rescomp.stanford.edu" }, "date": "2005-11-08T19:20:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131431189.729910.179260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"JavaJosh\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interrupted action. As fiction readers we've learned to anticipate\ncertain things. For example, if you were to read:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nBravo!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Conrad", "address": "nightman at io.com" }, "date": "2005-12-04T04:51:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1131110580.237908.247530@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JavaJosh wrote:\n\nIt didn't help that Able's voice in this book crept even closer to\nSeverian's and Patera Silk's, when it was already so very close. What\nwas really startling was that Toug's voice moved perceptibly in that\ndirection as well. Toug was Sir Able's squire, and while its possible\nin that position he'd start talking like his master, it didn't read\nlike that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that Silk's voice was rather different from Severian's. I \nfound the Urth books to be a bit of a slog the first time I tried to \nread them, but found the Long Sun books much more accessible. I enjoyed \nthe Urth books much more when I went back to them after a few years. I \npicked up the short sun books as a SFBC omnibus, but found them \ndifficult to start - I'll give them another try sometime later.\n\nI think of Gene Wolfe as being like literary fudge - they're hick and \nrich and great if you're in the mood for them, but at other times, \nthey're just too thick and heavy.\n\nDave" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5gvkf.51315$6y4.29672@bignews3.bellsouth.net>", "from": { "name": "Ted Nolan ", "address": "ted at loft.tnolan.com" }, "date": "2005-12-04T05:37:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think of Gene Wolfe as being like literary fudge - they're hick and " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably the first criticism of Gene Wolfe's style involving the word \"hick\".\n\n\n\t\t\t\tTed" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Conrad", "address": "nightman at io.com" }, "date": "2005-12-04T10:43:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<5gvkf.51315$6y4.29672@bignews3.bellsouth.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ted Nolan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think of Gene Wolfe as being like literary fudge - they're hick and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably the first criticism of Gene Wolfe's style involving the word \"hick\".\n\n\n\t\t\t\tTed" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yes, that should have been thick." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1133724363.865882.219790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "JavaJosh", "address": "javajosh at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-04T19:26:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: _The Wizard_ by Gene Wolfe - too much like previous Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Conrad wrote:\nTed Nolan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think of Gene Wolfe as being like literary fudge - they're hick and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Probably the first criticism of Gene Wolfe's style involving the word \"hick\".\n\n\n\t\t\t\tTed\nyes, that should have been thick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. I read \"hick\" as being similiar to \"tony\"." } ] } ] }