{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/usenet/66", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "usenet", "thread": { "id": 66, "subject": "Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "messages": 51, "voices": 20, "first": "2005-12-28T14:55:23+00:00", "last": "2006-01-05T13:07:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1135781723.546189.19520@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T14:55:23+00:00", "subject": "Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Contrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head of\nCerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent mortal\nflaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want to hide a rather ignorant\nreligious opinion under layers of elaborate blather." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "westprog", "address": "westprog at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T16:37:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135781723.546189.19520@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Contrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head of\nCerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent mortal\nflaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want to hide a rather ignorant\nreligious opinion" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "under layers of elaborate blather." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One person's elaborate blather is someone else's wonderful writing.\n\nJ/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135795018.842798.188130@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T18:36:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "westprog wrote:\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head of\nCerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent mortal\nflaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want to hide a rather ignorant\nreligious opinion" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil and\ndoomed to failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "under layers of elaborate blather." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One person's elaborate blather is someone else's wonderful writing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, it is wonderful writing but there is a dead skunk buried in the\nmiddle of it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<43b2ecc8$0$314$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>", "from": { "name": "Dan Goodman", "address": "dsgood at iphouse.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T19:51:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135795018.842798.188130@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:\nwestprog wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " wrote in message\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head\nof Cerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent\nmortal flaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want to hide a\nrather ignorant religious opinion\n\nAn ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil and\ndoomed to failure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've given no evidence that the opinion is ignorant.\n\nI do hope you don't mean that 1) the opinion is _wrong_ and 2) anyone\nwho is not ignorant will realize that it's wrong." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan Goodman\nJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ \nClutterers Anonymous unofficial community\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/\nDecluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com\nPredictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com\nAll political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.\nJohn Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135802577.600104.325410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T20:42:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<43b2ecc8$0$314$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Goodman wrote:\ngalt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "westprog wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " wrote in message\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head\nof Cerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent\nmortal flaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want to hide a\nrather ignorant religious opinion\n\nAn ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil and\ndoomed to failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've given no evidence that the opinion is ignorant.\n\nI do hope you don't mean that 1) the opinion is _wrong_ and 2) anyone\nwho is not ignorant will realize that it's wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh no, I believe that very, very intelligent people can and are\nhoodwinked by religion and accept its presumption of moral authority. I\nalso accept that being hoodwinked is not the same thing as being\nignorant." } ] }, { "message_id": "<43b2ffd3$0$815$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>", "from": { "name": "Dan Goodman", "address": "dsgood at iphouse.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T21:12:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135802577.600104.325410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:\nDan Goodman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "westprog wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " wrote in message\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth\nHead of Cerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and\ninherent mortal flaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want\nto hide a rather ignorant religious opinion\n\nAn ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil\nand doomed to failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've given no evidence that the opinion is ignorant.\n\nI do hope you don't mean that 1) the opinion is wrong and 2) anyone\nwho is not ignorant will realize that it's wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh no, I believe that very, very intelligent people can and are\nhoodwinked by religion and accept its presumption of moral authority.\nI also accept that being hoodwinked is not the same thing as being\nignorant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, what leads you to the conclusion that Wolfe's opinion is an\nignorant one?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan Goodman\nJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ \nClutterers Anonymous unofficial community\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/\nDecluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com\nPredictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com\nAll political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.\nJohn Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135804521.649021.27000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "james.t.williams", "address": "james.t.williams at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T21:15:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135795018.842798.188130@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have read \"Fifth Head\" several times, and I never saw it as\ncondemning cloning itself.\n\nIn the case of the story, an aberrant personality attempts to improve\nhimself through successive generations of clones. But improvement means\nchange, and I don't think he really wants to change himself. So he ends\nup repeating the same mistakes, and never getting better.\n\nDon't get me wrong- I am all for physical immortality. But I also don't\nsee the point of being physically immortal if you end up being\nessentially the same person for all time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135807300.969864.5150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Gary Thompson", "address": "quuxa23 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T22:01:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<43b2ffd3$0$815$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Goodman wrote:\ngalt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan Goodman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "westprog wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " wrote in message\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth\nHead of Cerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and\ninherent mortal flaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want\nto hide a rather ignorant religious opinion\n\nAn ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil\nand doomed to failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've given no evidence that the opinion is ignorant.\n\nI do hope you don't mean that 1) the opinion is wrong and 2) anyone\nwho is not ignorant will realize that it's wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh no, I believe that very, very intelligent people can and are\nhoodwinked by religion and accept its presumption of moral authority.\nI also accept that being hoodwinked is not the same thing as being\nignorant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, what leads you to the conclusion that Wolfe's opinion is an\nignorant one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps that it's not an objectivist one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135810650.498075.97470@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T22:57:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<43b2ffd3$0$815$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Goodman wrote:\ngalt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan Goodman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "westprog wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " wrote in message\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth\nHead of Cerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and\ninherent mortal flaws I am dismayed that Wolfe seems to want\nto hide a rather ignorant religious opinion\n\nAn ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil\nand doomed to failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've given no evidence that the opinion is ignorant.\n\nI do hope you don't mean that 1) the opinion is wrong and 2) anyone\nwho is not ignorant will realize that it's wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh no, I believe that very, very intelligent people can and are\nhoodwinked by religion and accept its presumption of moral authority.\nI also accept that being hoodwinked is not the same thing as being\nignorant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, what leads you to the conclusion that Wolfe's opinion is an\nignorant one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because clones are evil, you see. They just are." } ] }, { "message_id": "<43b31a7e$0$821$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>", "from": { "name": "Dan Goodman", "address": "dsgood at iphouse.com" }, "date": "2005-12-28T23:06:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135810650.498075.97470@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:\nDan Goodman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan Goodman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "westprog wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": " wrote in message\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The\nFifth Head of Cerberus\" on the topic of religious\nredemption and inherent mortal flaws I am dismayed that\nWolfe seems to want to hide a rather ignorant religious\nopinion\n\nAn ignorant opinion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely\nevil and doomed to failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You've given no evidence that the opinion is ignorant.\n\nI do hope you don't mean that 1) the opinion is wrong and 2)\nanyone who is not ignorant will realize that it's wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oh no, I believe that very, very intelligent people can and are\nhoodwinked by religion and accept its presumption of moral\nauthority. I also accept that being hoodwinked is not the same\nthing as being ignorant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, what leads you to the conclusion that Wolfe's opinion is an\nignorant one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because clones are evil, you see. They just are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense if 1) Wolfe himself puts it that way, or 2) you have\ninside knowledge that Wolfe is not basing that opinion on reasoning\nand/or evidence which he has not shared.\n\nAnd, of course, it's also possible that you're misunderstanding what he\nwrote as thoroughly as the people who believe(d) that _Animal Farm_ was\na defense of capitalism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan Goodman\nJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ \nClutterers Anonymous unofficial community\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/\nDecluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com\nPredictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com\nAll political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.\nJohn Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135815134.304806.19780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-29T00:12:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135804521.649021.27000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "james.t.williams at gmail.com wrote:\nI have read \"Fifth Head\" several times, and I never saw it as\ncondemning cloning itself.\n\nIn the case of the story, an aberrant personality attempts to improve\nhimself through successive generations of clones. But improvement means\nchange, and I don't think he really wants to change himself. So he ends\nup repeating the same mistakes, and never getting better.\n\nDon't get me wrong- I am all for physical immortality. But I also don't\nsee the point of being physically immortal if you end up being\nessentially the same person for all time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I see it as basically a statement that mankind can't be improved.\nYou see we were made the way we are by our \"creator\" and this is the\nonly way we can be (ie Biblical viewpoint). Any attempt at improvement\nis \"evil\" and goes against the will of our \"creator.\" Clones are\nunnatural and evil. Blah, blah, blah. But this is all so stupid and\nlame that I'll hide these ignorant sentiments as the unstated\nunderlying basis of a story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Howard Brazee", "address": "howard at brazee.net" }, "date": "2005-12-29T00:38:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135795018.842798.188130@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil and\ndoomed to failure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is it purely evil?\n\nWhy is it doomed to failure? If it was impurely evil, would it be\ndoomed to failure?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Howard Brazee", "address": "howard at brazee.net" }, "date": "2005-12-29T00:44:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135810650.498075.97470@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because clones are evil, you see. They just are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Especially natural ones." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135817297@sheol.org>", "from": { "name": "Wayne Throop", "address": "throopw at sheol.org" }, "date": "2005-12-29T00:48:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":: Because clones are evil, you see. They just are. \n\n: Especially natural ones. \n\nXref \"Split Heirs\".\n\n\nWayne Throop throopw at sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135819067.935105.176810@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "james.t.williams", "address": "james.t.williams at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-29T01:17:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135815134.304806.19780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no indication in the story that cloning/clones are evil.\nCertainly the uses to which cloning is put by the protagonist are a\nlittle creepy, but I don't see how that could condemn the technology\nitself.\n\nA major point of the story is that the protagonist is not improving-\nbut that seems to be due to an error in his particular methodology (and\nthat he seems to have started out extremely flawed to begin with),\nrather than from the fact that mankind cannot be improved at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Howard Brazee", "address": "howard at brazee.net" }, "date": "2005-12-29T01:24:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135815134.304806.19780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I see it as basically a statement that mankind can't be improved.\nYou see we were made the way we are by our \"creator\" and this is the\nonly way we can be (ie Biblical viewpoint)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that isn't a Biblical viewpoint. Lots of fundamentalists have\nstrong beliefs in things that they figure the Scriptures *should* say.\n\nAll physicians \"play God\", making decisions on how long we should live\nand what conditions our bodies should be." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lawrence Watt-Evans", "address": "lwe at sff.net" }, "date": "2005-12-29T05:58:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135817297@sheol.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:48:17 GMT, throopw at sheol.org (Wayne Throop)\nwrote:\n:: Because clones are evil, you see. They just are. \n\n: Especially natural ones. \n\nXref \"Split Heirs\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we don't know for sure whether anyone there's actually clones --\ncertainly Arbol isn't.\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135837381@sheol.org>", "from": { "name": "Wayne Throop", "address": "throopw at sheol.org" }, "date": "2005-12-29T06:23:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":::: Because clones are evil, you see. They just are. \n\n::: Especially natural ones. \n\n:: Xref \"Split Heirs\". \n\n: Lawrence Watt-Evans \n: Well, we don't know for sure whether anyone there's actually clones --\n: certainly Arbol isn't. \n\nTrue; I was unclear. I mean, that if there were natural clones\nin that setting, they would be considered \"evil\" in some sense.\nOr at least a Bad Thing To Have Happened. Didn't mean to imply \nthe siblings were genetically identical.\n\nNo other setting came to mind in which twins/triplets/etc\nare considered a Bad Thing. Well... there was a Dilvish where\nif twin's are sorcerers, they are each only half-strength, leading\nto some... er... sibling rivalry.\n\n: The real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\n: the sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil. \n\nAlso a good rule of thumb.\n\n\nWayne Throop throopw at sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "westprog", "address": "westprog at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-29T14:20:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135815134.304806.19780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I see it as basically a statement that mankind can't be improved.\nYou see we were made the way we are by our \"creator\" and this is the\nonly way we can be (ie Biblical viewpoint). Any attempt at improvement\nis \"evil\" and goes against the will of our \"creator.\" Clones are\nunnatural and evil. Blah, blah, blah. But this is all so stupid and\nlame that I'll hide these ignorant sentiments as the unstated\nunderlying basis of a story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He hid them pretty well. He'd have gotten away with it...\n\nJ/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2005-12-29T14:55:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135815134.304806.19780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have read \"Fifth Head\" several times, and I never saw it as\ncondemning cloning itself.\n\nIn the case of the story, an aberrant personality attempts to improve\nhimself through successive generations of clones. But improvement means\nchange, and I don't think he really wants to change himself. So he ends\nup repeating the same mistakes, and never getting better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I see it as basically a statement that mankind can't be improved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds like a lot to read into a story involving clones that don't \nimprove. \n\nThe second part features humans who disimprove (in most ways anyway, \nthough they develop psychic powers), and aliens who do improve (at \nleast if emulating man is considered better than emulating rocks and \ntrees). So maybe you are on to something with the 'improvement' theme. \nBut you read too much of your own obsessions into it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You see we were made the way we are by our \"creator\" and this is the\nonly way we can be (ie Biblical viewpoint). Any attempt at improvement\nis \"evil\" and goes against the will of our \"creator.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One attempt at improvement that fails hardly says that all attempts are \nevil. Nor, if it is evil, does it indicate *why* it is evil. Nor, if \nman cannot be improved, *why* man cannot be improved.\n\nIn the novel, cloning is banned on Earth, hence the experiments can \nonly be conducted on a frontier planet. Presumably cloning tends to \ncause problems. That is hardly an exceptional premise for a SF novel. \nNor is it especially religious, or even technologically or socially \nunlikely. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ones are\nunnatural and evil. Blah, blah, blah. But this is all so stupid and\nlame that I'll hide these ignorant sentiments as the unstated\nunderlying basis of a story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are the one with strange issues. I suspect you would \ndislike most of Wolfe's work even more, though, since he does value the \nreligious impulse - something that appears to enrage you.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135875647.113264.99160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "DougL", "address": "lampert.doug at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-29T17:00:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:\nOn Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:48:17 GMT, throopw at sheol.org (Wayne Throop)\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ":: Because clones are evil, you see. They just are.\n\n: Especially natural ones.\n\nXref \"Split Heirs\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, we don't know for sure whether anyone there's actually clones --\ncertainly Arbol isn't.\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sequel?\n\nIn any case it was obvious that the Uncle was going to be evil and try\nto take over himself.\n\nDougL" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lawrence Watt-Evans", "address": "lwe at sff.net" }, "date": "2005-12-29T17:21:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135875647.113264.99160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 29 Dec 2005 09:00:47 -0800, \"DougL\" wrote:\nLawrence Watt-Evans wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:48:17 GMT, throopw at sheol.org (Wayne Throop)\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": ":: Because clones are evil, you see. They just are.\n\n: Especially natural ones.\n\nXref \"Split Heirs\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, we don't know for sure whether anyone there's actually clones --\ncertainly Arbol isn't.\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sequel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Putting On Heirs_. Never written because Tor handed down an edict\nfrom on high, \"funny fantasy doesn't sell anymore so we aren't\npublishing any more.\"\n\nNo exceptions. Pointing to sales figures for _Split Heirs_ (which\nwere excellent) didn't help." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135877831.656304.321780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Mark", "address": "mtiedemann at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-29T17:37:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135795018.842798.188130@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "An ignorant opinion?<<\nCloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil and\ndoomed to failure.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The story is about epistatic drift, only in this case is moral drift\nrather than genetic. Also, a bit of transactional analysis thrown\nin--people follow \"scripts\" sometimes with incredible fidelity, often\nto their own detriment. He mixed a bit of Rousseau's \"Emile\" in as\nwell...it's by no means a simplistic concoction Wolfe came up with and\nit doesn't reduce at all to a one-line condemnation.\n\nMark\nauthor of:\nTHE SECANTIS SEQUENCE\nREMAINS\nwww.marktiedemann.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "westprog", "address": "westprog at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-30T16:59:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135877831.656304.321780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "An ignorant opinion?<<\nCloning and the genetic improvement of humankind is purely evil and\ndoomed to failure.<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The story is about epistatic drift, only in this case is moral drift\nrather than genetic. Also, a bit of transactional analysis thrown\nin--people follow \"scripts\" sometimes with incredible fidelity, often\nto their own detriment. He mixed a bit of Rousseau's \"Emile\" in as\nwell...it's by no means a simplistic concoction Wolfe came up with and\nit doesn't reduce at all to a one-line condemnation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is the SF author who is least liable to be summed up in a couple of\nsentences. Indeed, his work is so dense that an anyway complete summary\nwould probably be twice as long as the original story.\n\nJ/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135963742.011866.278390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Mark", "address": "mtiedemann at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-30T17:29:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Got that right. He's one of the few on my read and reread shelf.\n\nMark\nauthor of:\nTHE SECANTIS SEQUENCE\nREMAINS\nwww.marktiedemann.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1135977318.382507.90100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "jerry_friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-30T21:15:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI have read \"Fifth Head\" several times, and I never saw it as\ncondemning cloning itself.\n\nIn the case of the story, an aberrant personality attempts to improve\nhimself through successive generations of clones. But improvement means\nchange, and I don't think he really wants to change himself. So he ends\nup repeating the same mistakes, and never getting better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I see it as basically a statement that mankind can't be improved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sounds like a lot to read into a story involving clones that don't\nimprove.\n\nThe second part features humans who disimprove (in most ways anyway,\nthough they develop psychic powers), and aliens who do improve (at\nleast if emulating man is considered better than emulating rocks and\ntrees). So maybe you are on to something with the 'improvement' theme.\nBut you read too much of your own obsessions into it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You see we were made the way we are by our \"creator\" and this is the\nonly way we can be (ie Biblical viewpoint). Any attempt at improvement\nis \"evil\" and goes against the will of our \"creator.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One attempt at improvement that fails hardly says that all attempts are\nevil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor, if it is evil, does it indicate *why* it is evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In this case, because it's egoistical, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor, if\nman cannot be improved, *why* man cannot be improved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Wolfe is a Roman Catholic and believes in original sin, a human\nflaw that can't be cured." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the novel, cloning is banned on Earth, hence the experiments can\nonly be conducted on a frontier planet. Presumably cloning tends to\ncause problems. That is hardly an exceptional premise for a SF novel.\nNor is it especially religious, or even technologically or socially\nunlikely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is religious. Our hero lives at 666 Rue du Saltimbanque,\nafter all. (I'm not sure about the street name, but I'm sure about the\nNumber.) Another hint is that this gene wolf's name is quite possibly\nGene Wolfe. I don't know whether the real Wolfe was saying that all\nhuman cloning is evil--though if anyone interviews him, I think the\nquestion would be a good one to ask, now that he probably could be\ncloned--but I think he was at least saying that the Beast or the\nAntichrist or whatever is that close. Someone much like the author\ncould start a project to create it now by making people who are removed\nfrom the natural process of reproduction--does that mean removed from\nChristian redemption? The day when \"they'll want us\" is the beginning\nof the Christian Eschaton. Rather chilling, even for a non-Christian\nlike me if I apply some WSOD. So I think Galt_57 is on the right\ntrack, except..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "ones are\nunnatural and evil. Blah, blah, blah. But this is all so stupid and\nlame that I'll hide these ignorant sentiments as the unstated\nunderlying basis of a story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "....it's not stupid or ignorant. I see no reasoning Wolfe is incapable\nof and nothing he doesn't know that leads him to it. It's just based\non beliefs that you and I don't share, John." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are the one with strange issues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no chance that he takes it personally because he's the 57th\nclone of John Galt. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect you would\ndislike most of Wolfe's work even more, though, since he does value the\nreligious impulse - something that appears to enrage you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only that, he believes in a very specific religion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2005-12-31T14:06:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135977318.382507.90100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One attempt at improvement that fails hardly says that all attempts are\nevil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor, if it is evil, does it indicate *why* it is evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case, because it's egoistical, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor, if\nman cannot be improved, *why* man cannot be improved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Wolfe is a Roman Catholic and believes in original sin, a human\nflaw that can't be cured." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if that is why (and I don't know that it was necessarily the \nreason), having a flaw that cannot be cured does not prove that one \ncannot at least improve!\n\n[And you don't have to be a Catholic to believe in original sin - one \nmight draw a similar conclusion from the study of Darwin!]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the novel, cloning is banned on Earth, hence the experiments can\nonly be conducted on a frontier planet. Presumably cloning tends to\ncause problems. That is hardly an exceptional premise for a SF novel.\nNor is it especially religious, or even technologically or socially\nunlikely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is religious. Our hero lives at 666 Rue du Saltimbanque,\nafter all. (I'm not sure about the street name, but I'm sure about the\nNumber.) Another hint is that this gene wolf's name is quite possibly\nGene Wolfe. I don't know whether the real Wolfe was saying that all\nhuman cloning is evil--though if anyone interviews him, I think the\nquestion would be a good one to ask, now that he probably could be\ncloned--but I think he was at least saying that the Beast or the\nAntichrist or whatever is that close. Someone much like the author\ncould start a project to create it now by making people who are removed\nfrom the natural process of reproduction--does that mean removed from\nChristian redemption? The day when \"they'll want us\" is the beginning\nof the Christian Eschaton. Rather chilling, even for a non-Christian\nlike me if I apply some WSOD. So I think Galt_57 is on the right\ntrack, except..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I lent my copy, and I want it back! Of course Wolfe \nplays with lots of things, and not all the clues need add up to a \nsingle answer.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "westprog", "address": "westprog at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-31T15:09:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135977318.382507.90100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suspect you would\ndislike most of Wolfe's work even more, though, since he does value the\nreligious impulse - something that appears to enrage you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not only that, he believes in a very specific religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not uncommon.\n\nJ/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136128612.366330.128000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-01-01T15:16:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135781723.546189.19520@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "galt_57 at hotmail.com wrote:\nContrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head of\nCerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent mortal\nflaws I am dismayed... [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also when you consider the likely (or at least predictable) decline of\nWestern civilization simply due to the differential birth rates, the\nhidden religious morality in this story further annoys me. Considering\nthat the least educated (and perhaps least intelligent) of the worlds\npopulation are vastly out-reproducing those who probably are more\nintellectually capable. How many children did Einstein have? Two? How\nmany children per typical welfare mom? What does this lead to by\ngeometric progression over the next few thousand years? Then it pains\nme to remember that the Church may understand this and like this just\nfine. After all the Church reached its maximum power during dark times\nof turmoil and decline. Why shouldn't the Church promote beliefs which\ncould actually help to usher in such times and thus enhance its power\nand authority?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136129145.702577.146290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Mark", "address": "mtiedemann at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-01-01T15:25:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136128612.366330.128000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How many children did Einstein have? Two? How" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "many children per typical welfare mom?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two. (Less, really, but I've never quite figured out how to feel about\nhalf a child :>) That's a myth about welfare moms, an exaggeration\nbased on very local stats and media attention. In countries where the\nterm 'welfare mom' has no meaning, birth rates tend to fall within\nsimilar limits top to bottom. It has much more to do with infant\nmortality rates and available resources. When the infant mortality\nrate drops, the birth rate drops.\n\nThe decline of Western birth rates seems more tied to environmental\nfactors than anything else. Fertility rates are demonstrably lower,\neven among people who desperately want children (hence the geometric\ngrowth of the medical fertility industry, centered in the very\ncountries that can afford it--which is the industrialized West).\n\nMark\nauthor of:\nTHE SECANTIS SEQUENCE\nREMAINS\nwww.marktiedemann.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2006-01-01T17:34:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136128612.366330.128000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Contrasting the stories \"A Case of Conscence\" and \"The Fifth Head of\nCerberus\" on the topic of religious redemption and inherent mortal\nflaws I am dismayed... [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also when you consider the likely (or at least predictable) decline of\nWestern civilization simply due to the differential birth rates, the\nhidden religious morality in this story further annoys me. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perceived religious morality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering\nthat the least educated (and perhaps least intelligent) of the worlds\npopulation are vastly out-reproducing those who probably are more\nintellectually capable. How many children did Einstein have? Two? How\nmany children per typical welfare mom? What does this lead to by\ngeometric progression over the next few thousand years? Then it pains\nme to remember that the Church may understand this and like this just\nfine. After all the Church reached its maximum power during dark times\nof turmoil and decline. Why shouldn't the Church promote beliefs which\ncould actually help to usher in such times and thus enhance its power\nand authority?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have not heard of the Church exhorting intellectuals to use \ncontraception!\n\nThough I suspect that the idea of cloning an intellectual master race \n(if that is the platform you propose) would be abhorrent to her.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136140788.099115.191800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "jerry_friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-01-01T18:39:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One attempt at improvement that fails hardly says that all attempts are\nevil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nor, if it is evil, does it indicate *why* it is evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In this case, because it's egoistical, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nor, if\nman cannot be improved, *why* man cannot be improved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because Wolfe is a Roman Catholic and believes in original sin, a human\nflaw that can't be cured." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if that is why (and I don't know that it was necessarily the\nreason), having a flaw that cannot be cured does not prove that one\ncannot at least improve!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not. I think Galt is right to say that Wolfe is against this\nattempt at improvement, and that he probably is against many like it.\nHe's certainly in favor of the traditional method of doing one's best\nto live up to one's values, and the Christian method of trying to\naccept God's grace (which he presumably believes in). Galt left that\nout of his sweeping statement. I suspect Wolfe's extremely dubious\nabout other methods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[And you don't have to be a Catholic to believe in original sin - one\nmight draw a similar conclusion from the study of Darwin!]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Similar, but not the same. For one thing, in sf, the flaws we inherit\nfrom our ape ancestors are conceivably curable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the novel, cloning is banned on Earth, hence the experiments can\nonly be conducted on a frontier planet. Presumably cloning tends to\ncause problems. That is hardly an exceptional premise for a SF novel.\nNor is it especially religious, or even technologically or socially\nunlikely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is religious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. I lent my copy, and I want it back! Of course Wolfe\nplays with lots of things, and not all the clues need add up to a\nsingle answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly can't claim I know what everything in the original novella\nadds up to, and I understand even less about the other two (which Wolfe\napparently didn't have in mind when he wrote the first one)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim McDaniel", "address": "tmcd at panix.com" }, "date": "2006-01-01T18:44:53+00:00", "subject": "Evil Uncles (was Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[in re _Split Heirs_]\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Counterexample in the Deryni books: Nigel Haldane, duke of Carthmoor,\nuncle to King Kelson, and utterly devoted to him.\n\nQuasi-counterexample: Uncle Brinker in _A College of Magics_.\nPlotting and scheming, yes, but as I recallhe really did want good for\nthe duchy and his niece. Not quite evil enough. Semi-evil.\nQuasi-evil. The margarine of evil. The Diet Coke of evil, just one\ncalorie, not \"evil\" enough." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Me, I love the USA; I never miss an episode.\" -- Paul \"Fruitbat\" Sleigh" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lawrence Watt-Evans", "address": "lwe at sff.net" }, "date": "2006-01-01T18:59:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: Evil Uncles (was Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[in re _Split Heirs_]\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Counterexample in the Deryni books: Nigel Haldane, duke of Carthmoor,\nuncle to King Kelson, and utterly devoted to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew there was some reason I didn't like the Deryni stories! What\nnonsense." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Schilling", "address": "mscottschilling at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-01-01T19:13:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: Evil Uncles (was Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[in re _Split Heirs_]\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Counterexample in the Deryni books: Nigel Haldane, duke of Carthmoor,\nuncle to King Kelson, and utterly devoted to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I knew there was some reason I didn't like the Deryni stories! What\nnonsense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Richard III was a kindly uncle in Blackadder. (I don't recall if it \nexplained what happened to Edward V, but Richard III was succeeded by \nEdward's brother Richard.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Malcolm", "address": "regniztar at btinternet.com" }, "date": "2006-01-01T21:25:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Gerry Quinn\" wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have not heard of the Church exhorting intellectuals to use\ncontraception!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Until the Reformation all the universities were run by the church.\nMost of the academic staff were clergymen, and of course celibate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David T. Bilek", "address": "dtbilek at comcast.net" }, "date": "2006-01-01T22:21:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: Evil Uncles (was Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[in re _Split Heirs_]\n\nThe real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Counterexample in the Deryni books: Nigel Haldane, duke of Carthmoor,\nuncle to King Kelson, and utterly devoted to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I knew there was some reason I didn't like the Deryni stories! What\nnonsense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact that the prose in at least the earlier Deryni books is\npainfully stilted and amateur may also have something to do with it.\n\nI loved _Deryni Rising_ when I was a kid. I re-read it at about 20\nand laughed at my younger self.\n\n-David" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "westprog", "address": "westprog at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-01-02T00:29:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: Evil Uncles (was Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The real rule that applies _there_ (and which we were going to base\nthe sequel on) is that all uncles of young rulers are evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Counterexample in the Deryni books: Nigel Haldane, duke of Carthmoor,\nuncle to King Kelson, and utterly devoted to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I knew there was some reason I didn't like the Deryni stories! What\nnonsense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fact that the prose in at least the earlier Deryni books is\npainfully stilted and amateur may also have something to do with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I loved _Deryni Rising_ when I was a kid. I re-read it at about 20\nand laughed at my younger self." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea behind the Deryni books seems to have been that it was a good idea\nto use paranormal powers to fake supernatural events, and that this was OK\nif you were one of the good guys. Couldn't read a Deryni book now - but at\nthe time, there was hardly any fantasy around.\n\nJ/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2006-01-02T12:14:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136140788.099115.191800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[And you don't have to be a Catholic to believe in original sin - one\nmight draw a similar conclusion from the study of Darwin!]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Similar, but not the same. For one thing, in sf, the flaws we inherit\nfrom our ape ancestors are conceivably curable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really. Our self-interest and our socialisation will always be at \nwar, so the flaw is inescapable.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2006-01-02T12:20:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Gerry Quinn\" wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have not heard of the Church exhorting intellectuals to use\ncontraception!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Until the Reformation all the universities were run by the church.\nMost of the academic staff were clergymen, and of course celibate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Until the Gregorian reforms of the late eleventh century, including the \nperiod I assume the OP to refer to, celibacy rules were largely \nignored.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136227104.069393.207880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "galt_57 at hotmail.com", "address": "galt_57 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-01-02T18:38:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136128612.366330.128000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Omixochitl wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also when you consider the likely (or at least predictable) decline of\nWestern civilization simply due to the differential birth rates, the\nhidden religious morality in this story further annoys me. Considering\nthat the least educated (and perhaps least intelligent) of the worlds\npopulation are vastly out-reproducing those who probably are more\nintellectually capable. How many children did Einstein have? Two? How\nmany children per typical welfare mom? What does this lead to by" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From what I've heard, the typical welfare mom actually has about as many\nkids as the typical middle-class educated couple has (in both cases, the\nones who have 7 or 8 instead of 1 or 2 are atypical). Perhaps you're\nconfusing the typical welfare mom with the typical housewife of a\nsubsistence farmer?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the statistics don't actually support the concern I voiced\nabove -- I don't know. Urban legend would suggest that NBA stars tend\nto father far more children than any intellectual, but this again could\nbe bogus. My central claim however is that humankind is not getting any\nmore intelligent, may be getting less intelligent, and really isn't\nvery intelligent. I just don't believe we are going anywhere. SF tends\nto posit a grand future, or at least an interesting one, but humankind\nseems to me to be too stupid to make anything happen. Heck, half the US\npopulation thinks that Noah's Ark really happened and that we need to\nwait patiently for the return of Jesus. I don't believe that this is an\nencouraging sign. Going forward I question whether we will have the\n\"grey matter\" to make the grand technological breakthroughs that would\nbe necessary. In fact we have found that physics has become\nincomprehensible. We aren't smart enough to grasp it. As a result the\ngeneral population has become increasingly Luddite. What good is\nrational thinking if it only leads to incomprehensible topics such as\nString Theory? Might as well believe in New Age pseudo-science or\nmystical junk such as holistic healing or Feng Shui. The only hope\nmight be to utilize genetic engineering advancements to improve our\nmental capabilities before humankind self-destructs over some idiocy,\nbut any move in the direction of genetic engineering is very much\nopposed by fundamentalist religion. Eugenics is a very ugly word\nbecause it was applied in some very ignorant and evil ways. Still that\ndoesn't change the fact that we are here and that we got here through a\nvery slow process." } ] }, { "message_id": "<41tatqF1g85fbU1@individual.net>", "from": { "name": "Mike Stone", "address": "mwstone at aol.com" }, "date": "2006-01-02T18:50:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136227104.069393.207880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the statistics don't actually support the concern I voiced\nabove -- I don't know. Urban legend would suggest that NBA stars tend\nto father far more children than any intellectual, but this again could\nbe bogus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether bogus or not, it's irrelevant, unless the women he fathers them _on_\nrefrain from getting pregnant (in or out of wedlock) by someone else." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike Stone - Peterborough, England\n\n\n\"To be good is noble.\n\nTo teach others to be good is yet nobler - and far less trouble.\"\n\nMark Twain" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136230951.130760.169440@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Mark", "address": "mtiedemann at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-01-02T19:42:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136227104.069393.207880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heck, half the US" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "population thinks that Noah's Ark really happened and that we need to\nwait patiently for the return of Jesus.<\n\nWell, two centuries ago probably more than 70 or 80 percent believed\nboth, ardently. There have been dips and peaks in the stats since then\nand will be again, but I'm not too discouraged if only half the general\npopulation buys into mystical claptrap. That means the other half\ndoesn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My central claim however is that humankind is not getting any\nmore intelligent, may be getting less intelligent, and really isn't\nvery intelligent. I just don't believe we are going anywhere. SF tends\nto posit a grand future, or at least an interesting one, <" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that our \"future\" (ala SF) began to be imagined in, roughly, 1926\n(I'm using the launch of Amazing Magazine as the beginning), I'd have\nto say we live in a surprisingly interesting, far more advanced, and\nless parochial future than most of our writers up to the Fifties or\neven the Sixties imagined. Along the way, we've more than doubled the\nplanet's population, and are now on an almost daily basis (if we wish)\nfar more informed about vast segments of the global population that\nwere rarely considered prior to the second world war. Advancements in\nmedicine (including the \"dreaded\" genetic sciences), information\nsystems, transportation, communication, physics, and on and on and on\nargue persuasively that we've pretty much built and even surpassed many\nof the futures predicted along the way. Bear in mind that a lot of our\nbest writers thought we would be either in a nuclear-war-induced stone\nage by now or in the throes of massive economic depression leading to\ndramatic returns to 19th and even 18th century conditions. One may\nquibble around the edges, but neither of those have happened. Many\nother writers didn't even both talking about this part of the future,\nby-passing it for a rather broader interplanetary or interstellar\ncivilization--but the assumption was made that we'd get there. The\nonly thing we seem to be lagging on is the space effort, but China may\nyet realize that for us.\n\nDepending on which news you imbibe, I can see how one can get the\nimpression that somehow we're getting collectively dumber--but an awful\nlot of circumstantial evidence also argues to the contrary. Take your\nchoice--hopeful or hopeless. I'll go with hopeful.\n\nMark\nauthor of:\nTHE SECANTIS SEQUENCE\nREMAINS\nwww.marktiedemann.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Malcolm", "address": "regniztar at btinternet.com" }, "date": "2006-01-03T00:35:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136128612.366330.128000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Omixochitl\" wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From what I've heard, the typical welfare mom actually has about as many\nkids as the typical middle-class educated couple has (in both cases, the\nones who have 7 or 8 instead of 1 or 2 are atypical). Perhaps you're\nconfusing the typical welfare mom with the typical housewife of a\nsubsistence farmer?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're probably right.\nWelfare moms are trotted out in discussions of \"evolutionary morality\" - the \nidea that there is an ethical imperative to be adaptively successful.\n\nThe point is that all evolution cares about is how many genes you get into \nthe (grandchildrens') generation. It doesn't care whether you do that by \nexterminating inferior races, doing company accounts, or cashing welfare \ncheques." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Omixochitl", "address": "omixochitl2002 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-01-03T04:59:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<41tatqF1g85fbU1@individual.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps the statistics don't actually support the concern I voiced\nabove -- I don't know. Urban legend would suggest that NBA stars tend\nto father far more children than any intellectual, but this again\ncould be bogus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether bogus or not, it's irrelevant, unless the women he fathers\nthem _on_ refrain from getting pregnant (in or out of wedlock) by\nsomeone else. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, whether bogus or not, it sidesteps the whole nurture factor. After \nall, part of the urban legend seems to be that these athletes don't know \nof, let alone support and encourage, all their kids.\n\nNow if an intellectual behaved the same way, would his kids be much better \noff? Or is the kid of a single mom and a professor who totally ignores \nthen no more likely to succeed than the kid of the same woman and a ball \nplayer who totally ignores them?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2006-01-03T11:02:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136227104.069393.207880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only hope\nmight be to utilize genetic engineering advancements to improve our\nmental capabilities before humankind self-destructs over some idiocy,\nbut any move in the direction of genetic engineering is very much\nopposed by fundamentalist religion. Eugenics is a very ugly word\nbecause it was applied in some very ignorant and evil ways. Still that\ndoesn't change the fact that we are here and that we got here through a\nvery slow process." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Attitudes like yours go some way towards explaining why non-religious \nintelligent conservatives increasingly tend to find themselves allied \nwith religion-oriented groupings.\n\nEvolution IS a slow process - witness your adherence to the notion that \nman is perfectable by technology. \n\nWhat's especially bizarre is your notion of increasing intelligence by \ninserting mutated genes into the human genome. Assuming, reasonably \nenough, that intelligence is somewhat heritable, a conventional \nbreeding program that favoured the reproduction of high-IQ individuals \nwould at least run little risk of creating a biological disaster for \nhumanity, even if it promotes - as it probably would - racial tension, \nterrorism and a world war or three. \n\n(And if it works, I suspect that the main effect on the human race will \nbe that the sudokus in the newspapers will be slightly harder, and the \nnews surrounding them much the same.)\n\nYou talk about humanity \"self-destructing over some idiocy\". But \nyou're the one promoting such an idiocy.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris Thompson", "address": "cet1 at cus.cam.ac.uk" }, "date": "2006-01-04T22:31:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1135977318.382507.90100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor, if it is evil, does it indicate *why* it is evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case, because it's egoistical, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some reason, I am reminded of Ethan's description of why the\nAthosian religion considers cloning a sin. Specifically, the sin\nof Vanity.\n\n(\"That's a sin?\", Terrence says bemusedly, IIRC.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris Thompson\nEmail: cet1 [at] cam.ac.uk" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Howard Brazee", "address": "howard at brazee.net" }, "date": "2006-01-05T00:29:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4 Jan 2006 22:31:23 GMT, cet1 at cus.cam.ac.uk (Chris Thompson) wrote:\n\nFor some reason, I am reminded of Ethan's description of why the\nAthosian religion considers cloning a sin. Specifically, the sin\nof Vanity.\n\n(\"That's a sin?\", Terrence says bemusedly, IIRC.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Catholics got these sins from the Greeks - but sins are popular\nwith fundamentalists as well - even if not supported by the Bible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136424646.063637.45590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "jerry_friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-01-05T01:30:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[And you don't have to be a Catholic to believe in original sin - one\nmight draw a similar conclusion from the study of Darwin!]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Similar, but not the same. For one thing, in sf, the flaws we inherit\nfrom our ape ancestors are conceivably curable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not really. Our self-interest and our socialisation will always be at\nwar, so the flaw is inescapable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that comes from being individual members of a species, not from\nape ancestry. And one could still imagine \"curing\" it, at least by\narranging for more of us to be satisfied living alone." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at deletethisindigo.ie" }, "date": "2006-01-05T12:52:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "<1136424646.063637.45590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "[And you don't have to be a Catholic to believe in original sin - one\nmight draw a similar conclusion from the study of Darwin!]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Similar, but not the same. For one thing, in sf, the flaws we inherit\nfrom our ape ancestors are conceivably curable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not really. Our self-interest and our socialisation will always be at\nwar, so the flaw is inescapable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that comes from being individual members of a species, not from\nape ancestry. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But our species evolved to be social, with all the tensions that \nimplies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And one could still imagine \"curing\" it, at least by\narranging for more of us to be satisfied living alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A species of hermits happy to live in synthetic cocoons would hardly be \nMan. Killing the patient doesn't count as a cure.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1136466474.131116.324770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>", "from": { "name": "Karl M. Syring", "address": "syring at email.com" }, "date": "2006-01-05T13:07:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: Blish's \"Conscience\" vs. Wolfe's \"Fifth Head\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nA species of hermits happy to live in synthetic cocoons would hardly be\nMan. Killing the patient doesn't count as a cure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But social contacts are only required to keep the interleukin-6 level\nlow!\n\nUps, that was to nerdy\nKarl M. Syring" } ] } ] }