{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1001", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1001, "subject": "Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-09-01T17:47:47+00:00", "last": "2000-09-05T07:55:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Endymion9", "address": "endymion9 at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2000-09-01T17:47:47+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm about 1/4th way through OBW looking for clues to why Sinew and Horn hate\neach other, as well as investigating the possibility that Sinew is an inhumi\n(as I laid out in more detail in a previous post).\n\np.19 - Hoof says \"Sinew's here too\" Did Horn get the needler because Sinew\nwas there or the men in boat? I think Sinew.\n\np.20 - Horn already dreads Sinew. Wants him to be away from their home\noften.\nSinew sneered when asked to use the telescope? (Only seems to have respect\nfor weapon technology. Why? Because of beastlike/hunter nature?)\nSinew could never sharpen a knife properly? (For such a hunter??) Nettle\ndid it for him. Although he (Sinew) pretended he could.\n\nNot being able to sharpen a knife but pretending he could sounds inhumi-ish.\n\np.22 - Sinew carried out all the chairs\np.26 - Sinew supplied the roast\np.27 - I've always been gentle with you for your mother's sake (Horn to\nSinew).\nAlthough I loved him (Sinew) I did not like him. Not then, although things\nwere different on Green. Nor did he like me, I feel certain.\nI gave Sinew who had always eaten like fire in good times and bad a thick\nslice with plenty of gristle.\n\nFrom these passages the idea I am toying with is that Sinew hunts animals,\ndrains the blood to feed himself and brings the meat to Horn and the rest of\nthe family. This would explain Sinew's beastlike nature.\n\np.29 He titled his chair back against the wall, something that always\nannoyed me.\nSinew came to his brother's defense surprising and pleasing me.\np.30 - at reference to chems Sinew thumps down chair?\nSinew used a bow???\n\nThe reference to Sinew using a bow and one that follows about making a boat\nmake me wonder if Sinew could be an inhumi/human crossbreed?\nCharacteristics of both. I'm still wondering if Krait's mother took some\npart of Sinew's *soul* which she imbued to Krait but also imparted something\nto him (inhumi nature??).\n\np.32 - Sinew upset about conjuction coming\n\nThis passage doesn't sound very inhumi-ish. Unless it's dreading what other\ninhumi could do to his family.\n\np.34 - Horn envies Sinews energy and dexterity.\nPromises meant very little to Sinew as I had reason to know.\n\nI assume this has to do with Sinew's dissertion on Green. Did Sinew ever\npromise Horn anything? Helping him get to the whorl? Helping him on\nGreen? I don't recall any mention of a promise. Merely Sinew suddenly\nfighting beside his father on the lander and on Green. Did Horn assume this\nwas a promise?\n\np.35 - Sinew so close can feel breath on me.\n\nHave we had any references to inhumi actually breathing? Or have I just\nassumed they do?\n\np.36 - He loped beside me like an ill bred dog.\nI laughed, pretending a warmth of feeling that I did not feel.\n\np.37 - Horn offers needler. Sinew rejects. I recalled no argument of mine\nhad ever changed his mind. Sinew takes needler so Horn won't throw it away.\n\nDoes Sinew reject because he can't use a needler. If he is some type of\nhuman/inhumi crossbred can he handle tools better than inhumi but not as\ngood as other humans?\n\np.38 - Strangers. Visitors. Very plausible ones sometimes\n\nDid Horn and Nettle invite Krait's mother in and feel guilty about it? I\nthink others have already speculated that here.\n\np.41 - For so many years I feared that he would try to murder me, but in the\nend it was I who would have murdered him.\n\nBecause of his betrayal on Green? I still want to get to the bottom of why\nHorn thinks Sinew hates him so much and why Horn has such enmity towards\nSinew.\n\np.42 - Sinew resembles Horn. Devilish?\n\nOther's quotes this line previously. Inhumi quality of mimicking?\n\nHorn is jealous of Nettle's love for Sinew. He had already taken her from\nme.\n\nThis line makes me think of an old George C. Scott movie \"The Savage Is\nLoose\" (1974). Where a man, his wife and their child are isolated on an\nisland. The son and father start out very close friends. As the child\ngrows and develops sexual desires he begins to compete with the father for\nthe mother's affections. I'm not suggesting any incestuous feelings between\nSinew and Nettle. The line in OBW does suggest a more normal rivalry\nbetween a growing father and son. But what could drive it to such levels of\nhatred. Merely Horn jealous of a baby stealing his wife's attention? I\ndoubt it is the case here.\n\np. 56 - Try to find an honest man anywhere who would willingly say that\nSinew's moral development ever benefited from anything. He was brave on\nGreen, at least, and loyal for a time.\n\np.73 - Sinew will build a boat. It will be good that he watch it grow under\nhis hands.\n\n\nWhile pursuing this line of thought I came across other lines that raised\nquestions for me. Some of the following are just comments.\n\np.39 Why would accepting Morrow's boat have resulted in a \"serious loss\" ?\n\np.56 - I know better now, of course.\nAbout the gods. Because he is Pas/Silk/Horn? Other's have mentioned this\nreference.\n\np.57 - Remora reference to gods of whorl preventing gods of Blue from\nscourge - ing.\n\nThe gods of whorl protecting Blue worshippers? I think the gods definitely\nhave a presence on Blue. Not just Scylla.\n\np.59-62 - Prayed to Pas, Scylla & Outsider. Then leatherskin (6 legs)\ngrasps boat. Possessed by Scylla?\nOnce again others have already mentioned this ref.\n\np.65 - Horn wishes for a daughter or two. Interesting foreshadow of Fava\nand Jahlee?\nHorn is 35, thick bodied and balding. \n\np.74 - Horn dreamed that he had killed Silk.\n\nBy taking his body as Silk lay dying?\n\np.88 - What draws Mucor to the Mucor's Rock? Not just her spirit but in\nbody she travels there and stays long times. So Marble moves there with\nher.\n\np.92-93 - Marble predicts Horn's death, rebirth. Riding a beast w/3 horns.\nHe rode it when he was fatally wounded on Green. Do we know what beast this\nwas that Horn rode on Green. I don't recall reading it in IGJ.\n\np.95 Silk tells Mucor it will be dangerous for Horn to come. It will\nendanger Silk and Hyacinth. He tells Mucor not to reveal his whereabouts.\nWhy is it dangerous? Because the Travaguanti don't want him to leave\nthe whorl? Why is it dangerous to Hyacinth? Because they use her as\nblackmail to keep Silk from running off? Is that what finally caused\nHyacinth to die? Because Silk had decided to go to Blue?\n\np.101 How did Marble lie to Hammerstone? So bad that he would want to kill\nher. They never completed their daughter? I know I'm foggy on this but I\nthought they did complete their daughter (Olivine)? Am I having another\nAlzheimer's moment?\n\nWell that's as far as I've gotten. Will post more later.\n\n\nDennis/Endy\nhttp://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2000-09-02T09:42:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing that these quotes suggest is that (at the beginning, at least)\nthere is more enmity on Horn's part than on Sinew's. Horn depicts himself\nas a father who just won't give his son a chance, who already knows before\nthe test comes that Sinew will fail. This might be based on past\nexperience; in fact, Horn intimates to us that it is. But it's hard to see\nhow Sinew could have earned back his father's friendship and confidence\ngiven this attitude on Horn's side. So I am under the impression that this\nhatred and distrust is Horn's doing at some level. But why?\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea \nDepartment of Mathematics Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online\nColby College Mathematical Association of America\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org\nfqgouvea at colby.edu \n==========================================================\n\nWhat garlic is to food, insanity is to art.\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-09-02T15:46:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea wrote:\n\nOne thing that these quotes suggest is that (at the beginning, at least)\nthere is more enmity on Horn's part than on Sinew's. [snip] So I am under the impression that this\nhatred and distrust is Horn's doing at some level. But why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's my impression too. According to IGJ, the extreme poverty Horn\nand Nettle underwent during their first years on Blue was caused partly\nby Nettle's being pregnant with Sinew and later having to feed him. I\nonce suggested (in connection with a speculation as to the Secret, which\nI won't repeat), that this may have led Horn to consciously or\nunconsciously wish Sinew dead. Even if my speculation as to the Secret\nis wrong, my guess at Horn's feelings may be right, and Horn's guilt at\nthese feelings may unconsciously lead him to ascribe his own hostility\nto Sinew.\n\n--Adam\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim Boolos", "address": "timboolos at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-09-05T07:55:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn and Sinew's enmity (part 1)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Adam Stephanides wrote:\nFernando Q. Gouvea wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One thing that these quotes suggest is that (at\nthe beginning, at least)\nthere is more enmity on Horn's part than on\nSinew's. [snip] So I am under the impression that\nthis\nhatred and distrust is Horn's doing at some level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why?\n\nThat's my impression too. [ *snip* ] my guess at\nHorn's feelings may be right,\nand Horn's guilt at\nthese feelings may unconsciously lead him to ascribe\nhis own hostility\nto Sinew.\n\n--Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if this isn't part of the difficulties\nHorn/Silk is having with the merger, so to speak. \nI've posted before how the Horn side of the merged\nentity would be let down over Silk's failings, both\nreal and inmagined (not least of which would be his\n{Silk's} running after Hyacinth at the end of EfLS.) \nCould this have a tint of Silk's disappointment with\nthe way Horn treated Sinew growing up?\n\nKnowing that the narrator is part of the story and his\npurposes in writing the narrative are also part of the\nstory I have to question why this shows up so often in\nOBW and only to a lesser degree in IGJ. Could the\npurpose of the narrator be changing as the narrative\nprogresses. Wolfe has done this before with Soldier\nof Arete where Latro clearly (we learn at the end from\nPindaros) had more in mind than just setting down his\nday to day events. My theory remains that the\nHorn/Silk merged entity is using the narrative of\ntBoTSS (amoung other things) to work out its identity\nand that the motives and purposes behind the work in\nprogress are changing as we move along.\n\nEmrys" } ] } ] }