{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1038", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1038, "subject": "OBW: Horn and Silk", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-11-21T12:37:17+00:00", "last": "2000-11-21T15:55:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-11-21T14:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) OBW: Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished reading OBW and haven't started IGJ yet, but I couldn't\nresist reading through the archive discussions of the first book and\nposting a few responses. I'd appreciate if responses avoided spoilers for\nIGJ. If applicable, you could just say, \"IGJ contradicts your theory.\"\n\nI think this is the best book Wolfe has written. There are too many\nwonderful things to ennumerate: the very moving story of what Marble has\nsacrificed to care for Mucor, the scene in the pit and Horn's ongoing\nrelationship with Krait, Horn's obtuse but believable relationship with\nSinew (especially the bit about how he couldn't follow his desire to be a\ncoward in front of him on the lander)...\n\nThere are a lot of intriguing/satisfying/powerful allusions to the earlier\nbooks, and I really wouldn't recommend anyone read this without reading\nthe Long Sun, but I was amazed at how satisfying this book is on its own. \nThere is much left unanswered and more to Horn's story, but we do have\nHorn making a pact with the Neighbors, arriving at Pajaracu, flying away\non the lander, liberating it from the inhumi with Sinew, being reconciled\nwith Krait as he dies fighting to save Horn, saving Gaon, and escaping to\nrejoin his family. That's a lot more than we could say at the end of\nShadow or Nightside.\n\nI had seen bits of discussion on the list about Horn being in Silk's body,\nor subsuming some part of Silk into himself before reading the book, but\neven with that possiblity in my head as I read, I didn't think that was\nright.\n\nI'll start at the end. Horn says he's not ashamed of what he's\naccomplished: \"I have snatched the ball and won the game.\" What a\nwonderful line. Some have seen this as Silk's personality speaking,\nreferring literally to the game Silk won. But surely Horn is speaking\nmetaphorically, using an image from the event he remembers well, the game\nwhere Silk was enlightened and with which Horn began the Book of Silk.\n\nAnd what meaning did Silk's action have for Horn? Horn said to Silk at\nthe time, \"You were their best player. It wouldn't have been fair to them\nif you hadn't played your best.\" Silk used his power and strength to help\nthe weak. Which is exactly what Horn did, using his power over the inhumi\n(and his wise leadership in general) to save Gaon from Han. Horn may be\nreferring to some other action as well, but regardless, I take him as\nmeaning he has, at least in some things, done as Silk would do. Which\nmakes the line such a beautiful summary of how Horn has, throughout the\nbook, sought to be a faithful disciple of Silk. \n\nThere's no evidence that Silk would even remember the game, preoccupied as\nhe was by his enlightenment (note his lame response when the boys ask him\nwhat was the lesson in it). Seeing the reference as the personality of\nSilk himself literally remembering that game makes the line a trivial non\nsequitor.\n\nAs for inhabiting Silk's body, the ankle and Oreb are pretty strong\narguments in favor (and the hair, but that's doesn't necessarily point to\nSilk's body), but the height issue argues very strongly against. Silk\nnotes that he and Horn are almost the same height right in that opening\nsection of Nightside that has so much other rich foreshadowing. I can't\nbelieve Wolfe would have missed that.\n\nIn addition, if Horn has a new body, it seems very odd to me that he never\nonce worries about his family not recognizing him. You'd think at least\nonce when he's addressing Nettle, he'd say something about it, or that\nhe'd mope, \"Even if I do manage to return, I will not be recognized.\" It\nis very Wolfean for a narrator to not mention the obvious, but I think it\nwould make even less sense than usual in this case.\n\nI'll be reading IGJ soon, so I'll be able to catch up with the rest of the\ndiscussion. I'll be happy if it's half as good as OBW!\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-11-21T15:04:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) OBW: Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum: I will hold comment until you are done with IGJ, to avoid\nprejudicing your reading. But I must say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll be reading IGJ soon, so I'll be able to catch up with the rest of the\ndiscussion. I'll be happy if it's half as good as OBW!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's slightly better, which is saying a lot." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2000-11-21T12:37:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) OBW: Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum a ecrit:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd appreciate if responses avoided spoilers for IGJ. \nIf applicable, you could just say, \"IGJ contradicts your theory.\"\n\nI think this is the best book Wolfe has written. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IGJ contradicts your theory 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is much left unanswered and more to Horn's story, but we do have\nHorn making a pact with the Neighbors, arriving at Pajaracu, flying away\non the lander, liberating it from the inhumi with Sinew, being reconciled\nwith Krait as he dies fighting to save Horn, saving Gaon, and escaping to\nrejoin his family. That's a lot more than we could say at the end of\nShadow or Nightside." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I want to disagree strenuously. \n\nBy the end of _Shadow_, Severian has told us at least twice that he is \nbecome Autarch; drowned and been resurrected; been exiled for his crime \nagainst the guild; received his two talismans, the Claw and Terminus Est; \nmet most of the Book's major characters, including (in no special order)\nDorcas, Agia, Vodalus, Thecla, Thea, Dr. Talos, Baldanders, the Autarch, \nJolenta, the aquastors, and the bride of Abaia; raised at least one person \nfrom the dead, fought a duel, died and been raised again himself; made \nlove to his own grandmaw; and exercised his Art.\n\n_Nightside_ is a bit slower, but I think a longish list of major\ndevelopments could be made -- just not by me today." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had seen bits of discussion on the list about Horn being in Silk's\nbody, or subsuming some part of Silk into himself before reading the\nbook, but even with that possiblity in my head as I read, I didn't\nthink that was right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IGJ probably contradicts your theory, but this is Wolfe, so\nwho can say for certain? But there is strong evidence. I'll\nshut up about that now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll start at the end. Horn says he's not ashamed of what\nhe's accomplished: \"I have snatched the ball and won the game.\" \nWhat a wonderful line. [...] surely Horn is speaking\nmetaphorically [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_If_ you should prove to be right about Horn and Silk, your\ninterpretation would be brilliant. As it is, even if you are\nwrong, your interpretation is still quite valid: there is no \nneed to limit the remark to one meaning or the other. Horn can\nbe Silk (in some sense) and _still_ have the metaphor in mind\n_also_.\n\nNice call." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll be reading IGJ soon, so I'll be able to catch up with the\nrest of the discussion. I'll be happy if it's half as good as\nOBW!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You will be ecstatic.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-11-21T15:55:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) OBW: Horn and Silk", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nHere I want to disagree strenuously. [With my comment that there's more\nclosure after OBW than Shadow or Nightside]\n\nBy the end of _Shadow_, Severian has told us at least twice that he is \nbecome Autarch; drowned and been resurrected; been exiled for his crime \nagainst the guild; received his two talismans, the Claw and Terminus Est; \nmet most of the Book's major characters, including (in no special order)\nDorcas, Agia, Vodalus, Thecla, Thea, Dr. Talos, Baldanders, the Autarch, \nJolenta, the aquastors, and the bride of Abaia; raised at least one person \nfrom the dead, fought a duel, died and been raised again himself; made \nlove to his own grandmaw; and exercised his Art.\n\n_Nightside_ is a bit slower, but I think a longish list of major\ndevelopments could be made -- just not by me today." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops. OK, so what I really should have said was that I found OBW far more\nsatisfying on its own than Shadow or Nightside, but I have no idea why. \n\nMaybe it's because OBW is really Book 5 and not really a first book like\nthe other two?\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }