{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1052", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1052, "subject": "My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2000-12-05T03:21:39+00:00", "last": "2000-12-06T08:53:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Reverend Jacob Corbin", "address": "webmaster at afriendlysbooks.com" }, "date": "2000-12-05T03:21:39+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some discombobulated thoughts mere hours after plowing through IGJ:\n\n-- I'm glad I went ahead and purchased the hardcover instead of waiting for the TPB.\nNotwithstanding my junkie-like desperation for the next SHORT SUN installment, the\nfact that I could leave the dust jacket at home averted many potentially-embarrassing\nsituations. I know it's been discussed before on this list, but it bears repeating:\nthat cover is an abomination. I mean, just look at it. Does it grab you and demand\nyour attention, saying: \"This book is superbly erudite, marvelously witty, and worthy\nof the closest scrutiny. It is the best its genre has to offer and you owe it to\nyourself to read it\"? I'm afraid not. Instead, it shouts to unsuspecting passersby:\n\"The person reading this is a socially-maladapted head case and is best given a wide\nberth!\" Ehhh, I could go on for hours about SF's image problem, but I'll just stop\nhere.\n\n-- My only major complaint with the book was the repetitious Horn vs. the Despoiling\nConquerors stuff. Now, obviously Wolfe wouldn't keep putting his characters in these\nsituations if he wasn't trying to make a major point. And I'll grant that, like the\nGaonese war, the Blanko fiasco allowed Wolfe to put Horn into a series of situations\nthat would have been harder to contrive sans a background conflict. But why couldn't\nthis have been allowed to *remain* in the background, like in OBW? The \"climactic\"\nbattle suffered from a major case of deus ex machina. Wolfe spends large chunks of\ndialogue describing the relative might of Soldo's forces to ratchet up the tension and\nget us wondering what clever tactics will be used...but neglects to tell the reader\nthat, oh yeah, Blanko had a bunch of heavy artillery just lying around. Handy, that.\n\n-- I liked the way OBW dealt, to some extent, with the rearing of sons, and now IGJ\nhas done much the same with daughters...as one would expect, given the dedications.\nDoes anyone know if Horn's adventures in parenting bear any resemblance to GW's own?\n\n-- I massively enjoyed almost every other aspect of the book. I probably gave a\ngirlish squeal of glee when everyone turned up in Nessus. Unfortunately, thanks to my\nutter lack of discipline, I now have a very long wait for RTTW, and am going to have\nto spend the morning turning my bookshelves inside out in search of a suitable\nsubstitute...the methadone to GW's heroin, as it were. I'm open to suggestions.\n\nJacob G Corbin\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2000-12-05T08:50:18+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- I'm glad I went ahead and purchased the hardcover instead of waiting\nfor the TPB.\nNotwithstanding my junkie-like desperation for the next SHORT SUN\ninstallment, the\nfact that I could leave the dust jacket at home averted many\npotentially-embarrassing\nsituations. I know it's been discussed before on this list, but it bears\nrepeating:\nthat cover is an abomination. I mean, just look at it. Does it grab you\nand demand\nyour attention, saying: \"This book is superbly erudite, marvelously witty,\nand worthy\nof the closest scrutiny. It is the best its genre has to offer and you\nowe it to\nyourself to read it\"? I'm afraid not. Instead, it shouts to unsuspecting\npassersby:\n\"The person reading this is a socially-maladapted head case and is best\ngiven a wide\nberth!\" Ehhh, I could go on for hours about SF's image problem, but I'll\njust stop\nhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree with you in the general case, about SF's \"image problem,\" I\nhave to ask...\nAm I the _only_ person here who likes the covers on OBW and IGJ? I find this\nfrankly hard \nto believe; the marketing department at TOR can't be utter ninnies. (Though\nI do recall\nDeb Notkin once defining publishers as \"companies whose job is to prevent\nthe sale of\nas many books as possible.\") The illustrations clearly represent important\nmoments in\nthe course of the book, without \"giving away the plot;\" additionally, they\nare competent\n(to say the least) in layout and execution. What, beyond this, anyone wants\nfrom a cover\nillo is beyond me.\n\nThe overall cover designs also impressed me: the white strip at the top with\nthe \nauthor's name just, I dunno, looks classy -- says in a clearly coded way,\n\"this is a\nMajor Writer.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- My only major complaint with the book was the repetitious Horn vs. the\nDespoiling\nConquerors stuff. Now, obviously Wolfe wouldn't keep putting his\ncharacters in these\nsituations if he wasn't trying to make a major point. And I'll grant\nthat, like the\nGaonese war, the Blanko fiasco allowed Wolfe to put Horn into a series of\nsituations\nthat would have been harder to contrive sans a background conflict. But\nwhy couldn't\nthis have been allowed to *remain* in the background, like in OBW? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "War is one of Wolfe's major recurring themes; wars take a major part in\nBotNS, BotLS, \nand now BotSS, not to mention a goodish selection of his shorter works. In\nall these\nhe explores war from a surprisingly neutral standpoint -- that is, he\ndoesn't seem to\nbe taking either the Heinlein (STARSHIP TROOPERS) or the Haldeman (FOREVER\nWAR) position,\nbut reporting neutrally: people do fight, these are some reasons why people\nfight, this\nis what it is like when people fight. War is not glorified but portrayed as\nhorrible;\nbut neither is it shown as always unnecessary and stupid. This is yet\nanother of Wolfe's\nmany remarkable accomplishments as a writer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"climactic\"\nbattle suffered from a major case of deus ex machina. Wolfe spends large\nchunks of\ndialogue describing the relative might of Soldo's forces to ratchet up the\ntension and\nget us wondering what clever tactics will be used...but neglects to tell\nthe reader\nthat, oh yeah, Blanko had a bunch of heavy artillery just lying around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Handy, that.\n\nIt's been a couple of months since I read IGJ (already!), and I devoured it\nwith unseemly \nspeed, but... I seem to recall that the heavy artillery was too heavy to\nmove very far or \nwith any great speed; thus it had not been particularly relevant to the war\nuntil Soldo's \nforces came close. One of the basic tactical facts of war: the defender has\na natural \nadvantage, because he can sit in the safest places and pick at the attacker,\nwho must leave \nhis safe places and advance to accomplish anything. This is doubly true when\nthe territory \nbeing defended is the defender's home; both for obvious emotional reasons,\nbut also because\nthe defender has additional resources at that point. (This is one reason why\na siege with\na seemingly-overwhelming attacking force can drag on for so long.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- I liked the way OBW dealt, to some extent, with the rearing of sons,\nand now IGJ\nhas done much the same with daughters...as one would expect, given the\ndedications.\nDoes anyone know if Horn's adventures in parenting bear any resemblance to\nGW's own?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall hearing that his eldest was bitten by a shape-changing\nvampire as an\ninfant... 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- I massively enjoyed almost every other aspect of the book. I probably\ngave a\ngirlish squeal of glee when everyone turned up in Nessus. Unfortunately,\nthanks to my\nutter lack of discipline, I now have a very long wait for RTTW, and am\ngoing to have\nto spend the morning turning my bookshelves inside out in search of a\nsuitable\nsubstitute...the methadone to GW's heroin, as it were. I'm open to\nsuggestions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, here's a couple. They are not at all Lupine, I think, but all should\nappeal to\nWolfe fans as literate SF/F with content more complex than a big adventure.\n\n1. Run, do not walk, to your local bookseller and demand that they sell you\na copy\nof Peter Hamilton's THE REALITY DYSFUNCTION, which is the first volume of a\ntruly\nmassive space-opera. All three volumes are now out in massmarket p/b\n(actually all\nsix volumes, because each volume had to be splilt for the p/b). This alone\nmight well\nkeep you busy until RttW hits. (Look, where else can you find a space opera\nthat \nplausibly features Al Capone as a major character?) Fair warning though: if\nyou can't\nhandle horror of the Clive Barker style, avoid this; it contains some, uh,\n_scenes_\nthat will turn your stomach. \n\n2. On a completely different note, I can also recommend Kirsten Bakis's\nLIVES OF THE\nMONSTER DOGS. This is probably the closest to Wolfeishness of the\nrecommendations I \nam offering here -- secrets, secret history, strange relationships, mad\nscientists, \nthe works. I won't say anything more about it, just go look it up on Amazon.\n\n3. If you haven't done so already, catch up with Gene Wolfe's favorite\ndetective (and \nmine): Nero Wolfe, as chronicled by his assistant, Archie Goodwin, and his\nliterary \nagent, the late Rex Stout (do not bother with the pathetic imitations by\nRobert \nGoldsborough). The ideal would be to read them in chronological order, but\nif you lack \nthe will, the money, or the ability (that is, motive, means, and\nopportunity) to dig \nup all the books, some of the best are: TOO MANY COOKS; BLACK ORCHIDS;\nGAMBIT; OVER \nMY DEAD BODY; and THE DOORBELL RANG. Three books deserver special mention,\nand should \nbe read in the correct order, as they involve Wolfe's equivalent to Holmes's\nMoriarty, \none Arnold Zeck: AND BE A VILLAIN, THE SECOND CONFESSION, and IN THE BEST\nFAMILIES.\nThese build to a definite climax; they are collected in the omnibus TRIPLE\nZECK (groan),\nwhich may be available in your local public library. (At any rate, most of\nthem are\nfairly easy to find in cheap used paperback editions.)\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-12-05T17:05:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 08:50 2000-12-05 -0800, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n-- I'm glad I went ahead and purchased the hardcover instead of waiting for the TPB.\nNotwithstanding my junkie-like desperation for the next SHORT SUN installment, the\nfact that I could leave the dust jacket at home averted many potentially-embarrassing\nsituations. I know it's been discussed before on this list, but it bears repeating:\nthat cover is an abomination. I mean, just look at it. Does it grab you and demand\nyour attention, saying: \"This book is superbly erudite, marvelously witty, and worthy\nof the closest scrutiny. It is the best its genre has to offer and you owe it to\nyourself to read it\"? I'm afraid not. Instead, it shouts to unsuspecting passersby:\n\"The person reading this is a socially-maladapted head case and is best given a wide\nberth!\" Ehhh, I could go on for hours about SF's image problem, but I'll just stop\nhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I agree with you in the general case, about SF's \"image problem,\" I have to ask...\nAm I the _only_ person here who likes the covers on OBW and IGJ? I find this frankly hard \nto believe; the marketing department at TOR can't be utter ninnies. (Though I do recall\nDeb Notkin once defining publishers as \"companies whose job is to prevent the sale of\nas many books as possible.\") The illustrations clearly represent important moments in\nthe course of the book, without \"giving away the plot;\" additionally, they are competent\n(to say the least) in layout and execution. What, beyond this, anyone wants from a cover\nillo is beyond me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I liked the cover of OBW, though I agree that it does have potential\nfor embarrassment; even then, a lot less than a simple description\nfeaturing \"a blonde woman with no clothes\" would suggest!\n\nI didn't like the cover of IGJ, though. The mysterious figure of the\nNeighbour was reduced to a cartoon spider-horse-man, and the jungles\ndidn't seem dense enough. Mind you, the jungles don't feel dense and\n\"jungly\" in IGJ, especially compared to the hints in OBW. There's no\nmention of the towering cliffs, or the \"trees that eat trees that eat\ntrees\". That was a little disappointing, or would have been if what\n*was* in the book hadn't been so good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The overall cover designs also impressed me: the white strip at the top with the \nauthor's name just, I dunno, looks classy -- says in a clearly coded way, \"this is a\nMajor Writer.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The dark covers under the jacket, silver titles, and something about the\npages at the very beginning also bespeak Quality.\n\nThanks for the recommendations, and for the warning about Peter Hamilton too.\n\nSpectacled Bear.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2000-12-05T12:41:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:50 AM 12/5/00 -0800, Dan'l wrote:\nAm I the _only_ person here who likes the covers on OBW and IGJ? I find this\nfrankly hard to believe; the marketing department at TOR can't be utter\nninnies. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I could believe that the marketing (and design) departments at a\nmajor publisher are utter ninnies, I don't believe that the ones at Tor\nare. I rather like the covers of both _Blue_ and _Green_--not just as\ncovers, but as covers for those specific books, and I continue to be amazed\nby the hostile reactions to them expressed here. \n\nI think the piece of art on the cover of _Whorl_ does not fit the book very\nwell (although, or perhaps because it's the most literal of the three\ncovers), but I think it's a lovely illustration, the best of the three." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-12-05T23:51:58+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:50 AM -0800 12/5/00, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n3. If you haven't done so already, catch up with Gene Wolfe's favorite\ndetective (and mine): Nero Wolfe, as chronicled by his assistant, \nArchie Goodwin, and his literary agent, the late Rex Stout (do not \nbother with the pathetic imitations by Robert Goldsborough). The \nideal would be to read them in chronological order, but if you lack \nthe will, the money, or the ability (that is, motive, means, and \nopportunity) to dig up all the books, some of the best are: TOO MANY \nCOOKS; BLACK ORCHIDS; GAMBIT; OVER MY DEAD BODY; and THE DOORBELL \nRANG. Three books deserver special mention, and should be read in \nthe correct order, as they involve Wolfe's equivalent to Holmes's \nMoriarty, one Arnold Zeck: AND BE A VILLAIN, THE SECOND CONFESSION, \nand IN THE BEST\nFAMILIES. These build to a definite climax; they are collected in \nthe omnibus TRIPLE ZECK (groan), which may be available in your \nlocal public library. (At any rate, most of them are fairly easy to \nfind in cheap used paperback editions.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since recommending books seems to be in fashion at the moment, I'm \ngoing to chime in. First, I would like to very strongly second the \nrecommendation for the Nero Wolfe books above. I think that there are \nabout 30 of them and they are all well worth reading; I have read all \nof them more than once.\n\nSecond, I have been meaning to recommend Iain Pears' book _An \nInstance of the Fingerpost_ to this list for some time. It is a \nhistorical mystery/thriller that most reviews compare to Umberto \nEco's _The Name of the Rose_. This comparison is apt, although I \nliked _Fingerpost_ better, but any reader of Wolfe will not be able \nto stop making comparisons between his books and Pears' novel.\n\nAlthough Pear's writing style isn't much like Wolfe's, he is as good \na writer (if such a statement has any meaning) and he uses trick \nafter trick that we have seen in Wolfe's writing, each in his own way.\n\nThere is a (nearly) unnamed narrator, multiple narrators who may or \nmay not be reliable, very important religious issues and a good deal \nof complicated politics. One big difference is that you do feel you \nhave a pretty complete grasp of what really happened in the book when \nyou are done. But, despite this, I don't think even the most fervent \nadmirers of ambiguity here will be disappointed.\n\nThis book is in print and available at Amazon.com and elsewhere I am sure." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Endymion9", "address": "endymion9 at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2000-12-06T04:26:14+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhile I agree with you in the general case, about SF's \"image problem,\" I\nhave to ask...\nAm I the _only_ person here who likes the covers on OBW and IGJ? I find\nthis\nfrankly hard\nto believe; the marketing department at TOR can't be utter ninnies. (Though\nI do recall\nDeb Notkin once defining publishers as \"companies whose job is to prevent\nthe sale of\nas many books as possible.\") The illustrations clearly represent important\nmoments in\nthe course of the book, without \"giving away the plot;\" additionally, they\nare competent\n(to say the least) in layout and execution. What, beyond this, anyone wants\nfrom a cover\nillo is beyond me.\n\nThe overall cover designs also impressed me: the white strip at the top\nwith\nthe\nauthor's name just, I dunno, looks classy -- says in a clearly coded way,\n\"this is a\nMajor Writer.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like both covers for the reasons you described. However, I have never\nbeen ashamed of letting my friends and associates know that I greatly enjoy\nreading scifi, watching Dr. Who, etc. and other things that I've heard\npeople in NGs mention could embarrass them. I wouldn't want a book cover\nthat fooled people into thinking I was reading a Physics book. So I have\nthe same confusion as to what people want in a Wolfe cover. Perhaps if they\nmentioned which Wolfe covers from past books they approve of?\n\n\n\nDennis/Endy\nhttp://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-12-06T08:53:08+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) My reaction to IN GREEN'S JUNGLES", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Endymion9 wrote:\nI like both covers for the reasons you described. However, I have never\nbeen ashamed of letting my friends and associates know that I greatly enjoy\nreading scifi, watching Dr. Who, etc. and other things that I've heard\npeople in NGs mention could embarrass them. I wouldn't want a book cover\nthat fooled people into thinking I was reading a Physics book. So I have\nthe same confusion as to what people want in a Wolfe cover. Perhaps if they\nmentioned which Wolfe covers from past books they approve of?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not ashamed of scifi covers, I just don't think the artwork on the\nShort Sun books is very good. The multi-legged thing on the cover of IGJ\njust looks dumb. And Babbie looks too much like a teddy bear on the gover\nof OBW. And Horn's boat is too big, and I just don't like the style of\nthe artwork in general. It seems too fuzzy, almost cartoonish.\n\nI think the artwork on the Soldier books is the classiest. I like the Orb\ntrade paperback versions of Shadow/Claw, Sword/Citadel (although I don't\nmuch like that illustration on the front of Sword/Citadel) - the original\ncovers that someone put on a website a while back are even better. The\nillustration on Lake of the Long Sun is one of my favorites, Nightside and\nCalde are pretty good, but Exodus is not very interesting. The cover of\nFree Live Free didn't do a very good job of attracting me to the book, but\nonce I'd read it I thought the illustration captured the characters very\nwell. \n\nI like the paperback cover for \"Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\nand Other Stories,\" but was disappointed that they wimped out on the\ntitle, shying away from the weirdness of it by making the second \"and\nOther Stories\" look like a smaller echo of the first rather than forcing\npeople to puzzle it out and risk looking like they made a blooper (which I\nthink would have done a better job of attracting attention to the\nbook: \"Look they screwed up the cover! No, wait...\"\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }