Subject: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene *Spoiler*

From: E Dorian <edorian at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 02:15:54 +0000

Hi Everybody,

So, recently I decided to read all of the Sun books in order, timing it so 
that when I finished IGJ, RTTW would come out and I would jump to that.  
Well, I am behind; I am about to finish Urth of the New Sun.  But I may have 
discovered something interesting.  I was on page 356 of Urth:

     "I felt as real as I ever have; and when I searched among my memories, 
I found Valeria there still, and Thecla and old Autarch, and the boy 
Severian(who had been Severian only).  "No," I said.  "We will live."

Adam's quote from IGJ:  "I knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would 
see them."

Severian stopped being "one" person, so to speak.  He uses "I" throughout 
his entire narrative, but sprinkles the "we's" around on occasion.

Severian uses "I" and "we", the IGJ passage uses "he" and "them", so, have I 
unurthed evidence that Severian is The Outsider?

Your thoughts?

Darryl
edorian at hotmail.com

>From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: whorl at lists.best.com
>To: whorl at lists.best.com
>Subject: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene
>Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:17:40 -0700
>
>I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following
>sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I
>knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285)
>
>Is that "them" a typo?  If not, what does it mean?
>
>--Adam

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---

From: Peter Westlake <peter at harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:45:01 +0000

>unurthed evidence that Severian is The Outsider?

I see what you mean, but I think "them" refers to the Outsider and the
rather large baletiger that helps Horn. Severian talks a lot about "the
Increate" and "the Pancreator" in very much the terms of a man talking
about a deity, and that's who the Outsider is, I'm sure.

Spectacled Bear (really wearing spectacles today).

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:10:35 +0000

>about a deity, and that's who the Outsider is, I'm sure.

Also:

No. Severian is not the Outsider, but an agent thereof. When Severian is
"we" it is because, being the Conciliator, he has the gift/curse of
actually bringing back to life, in some sense, anyone he takes into
himself. That's a symbol of the way the sacrament works in the Church,
uniting believers not only to Christ as an individual, but also to all the
other people in the Church (the bread represents both Jesus and all of his
"body"). Thus, when Severian eats Thecla, he not only gets her memories for
a brief time, like everyone else, but she actually comes to life inside of
him, and is with him from then on. In the same way, he eats all the
preceding Autarchs, and they are all alive inside him. But he is NOT the
Outsider/Increate/Pancreator.
	Additionally, I suggest that the baletiger that helps Horn in his
encounter with the Outsider should be linked to Blake's tyger, who like the
lamb he is compared with, is a symbol of Christ. 

Nutria