# IGJ: altar scene *Spoiler* *The Whorl list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 29 Dec 2000* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### E Dorian *29 Dec 2000, 02:15* Hi Everybody, So, recently I decided to read all of the Sun books in order, timing it so that when I finished IGJ, RTTW would come out and I would jump to that. Well, I am behind; I am about to finish Urth of the New Sun. But I may have discovered something interesting. I was on page 356 of Urth: "I felt as real as I ever have; and when I searched among my memories, I found Valeria there still, and Thecla and old Autarch, and the boy Severian(who had been Severian only). "No," I said. "We will live." Adam's quote from IGJ: "I knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." Severian stopped being "one" person, so to speak. He uses "I" throughout his entire narrative, but sprinkles the "we's" around on occasion. Severian uses "I" and "we", the IGJ passage uses "he" and "them", so, have I unurthed evidence that Severian is The Outsider? Your thoughts? Darryl edorian at hotmail.com > From: Adam Stephanides > Reply-To: whorl at lists.best.com > To: whorl at lists.best.com > Subject: (whorl) IGJ: altar scene > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:17:40 -0700 > > I was reviewing the altar scene, and I just noticed the following > sentence, where Horn is narrating the manifestation of the Outsider: "I > knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would see them." (285) > > Is that "them" a typo? If not, what does it mean? > > --Adam --- ### Peter Westlake *29 Dec 2000, 11:45 · follows E Dorian* > At 02:15 2000-12-29 -0500, E Dorian wrote: > Hi Everybody, > > So, recently I decided to read all of the Sun books in order, timing it so > that when I finished IGJ, RTTW would come out and I would jump to that. > Well, I am behind; I am about to finish Urth of the New Sun. But I may have > discovered something interesting. I was on page 356 of Urth: > > "I felt as real as I ever have; and when I searched among my memories, > I found Valeria there still, and Thecla and old Autarch, and the boy > Severian(who had been Severian only). "No," I said. "We will live." > > Adam's quote from IGJ: "I knew that he was there, that if I turned, I would > see them." > > Severian stopped being "one" person, so to speak. He uses "I" throughout > his entire narrative, but sprinkles the "we's" around on occasion. > > Severian uses "I" and "we", the IGJ passage uses "he" and "them", so, have I > unurthed evidence that Severian is The Outsider? I see what you mean, but I think "them" refers to the Outsider and the rather large baletiger that helps Horn. Severian talks a lot about "the Increate" and "the Pancreator" in very much the terms of a man talking about a deity, and that's who the Outsider is, I'm sure. Spectacled Bear (really wearing spectacles today). *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Jim Jordan *29 Dec 2000, 09:10 · follows Peter Westlake* Query: >> Severian uses "I" and "we", the IGJ passage uses "he" and "them", so, >> have I >> unurthed evidence that Severian is The Outsider? Reply: > I see what you mean, but I think "them" refers to the Outsider and the > rather large baletiger that helps Horn. Severian talks a lot about "the > Increate" and "the Pancreator" in very much the terms of a man talking > about a deity, and that's who the Outsider is, I'm sure. Also: No. Severian is not the Outsider, but an agent thereof. When Severian is "we" it is because, being the Conciliator, he has the gift/curse of actually bringing back to life, in some sense, anyone he takes into himself. That's a symbol of the way the sacrament works in the Church, uniting believers not only to Christ as an individual, but also to all the other people in the Church (the bread represents both Jesus and all of his "body"). Thus, when Severian eats Thecla, he not only gets her memories for a brief time, like everyone else, but she actually comes to life inside of him, and is with him from then on. In the same way, he eats all the preceding Autarchs, and they are all alive inside him. But he is NOT the Outsider/Increate/Pancreator. Additionally, I suggest that the baletiger that helps Horn in his encounter with the Outsider should be linked to Blake's tyger, who like the lamb he is compared with, is a symbol of Christ. Nutria *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ---