{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1092", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1092, "subject": "RTTW (spoilers)", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2001-02-03T10:52:10+00:00", "last": "2001-02-08T18:04:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "james.kellar", "address": "james.kellar at quantel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-03T10:52:10+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) RTTW (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "have I understood correctly, do you think, that the Neighbours sent representatives to the Whorl\nwhen it arrived in the Blue/Green system?\ndo we have any clues as to who these might be? I wonder if they could be connected with the\n(horrible) godling?\n\ngerbil\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "michael braithwaite", "address": "mbraithwaite27 at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2001-02-03T19:26:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "
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Gerbil wrote

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>have I understood correctly, do you think, that the Neighbours sent representatives to the Whorl \n
>when it arrived in the Blue/Green system? \n
>do we have any clues as to who these might be? I wonder if they could be connected with the \n
>(horrible) godling? \n
> \n
\n

>gerbil

\n

 

\n

Horn says that the Neighbors sent the inhumi to the Whorl before Windcloud and other Neighbors went there (p235). The godlings seem  to be controlled by Mainframe so they probably came from embryos like Silk, Mucor and Pig.


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\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ian Smith", "address": "doctoriancsmith at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2001-02-06T19:53:33+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: RTTW (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just finished RTTWand heartily confused at the ending. Will someone who is\nmore able please alleviate my stupidity by explaining exactly what happened\nin that last scene with Remora, esp. what the 'Hyacinth' passage from the\nwritings indicated?\n\nHaving read the posts, I also have a couple more pennies-worth of my own to\nstick in:\n\nFrom Nacre's post:\n\n\"I would never have used it while" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nettle was alive\", confused me, Jahlee\ndidn't kill Nettle, did she? Didn't\nNettle go with Silk and Marble?\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the most part, I agree with David DiGiacomo's\nanswers. For the question above, though, I'd suggest\nthat it's another example of Horn's and Silk's mem-\nories mixing. \"It\" is the azoth, if I recall correctly (I\ndon't have the book here to check); he says \"Nettle\"\nbut means, I think, Hyacinth. Note, if you will, that\nthis error is the opposite of the ones he was making\nat the beginning of OBW; at that time, Hyacinth's\nname often appeared when he meant Nettle, but by\nthis point, the substitutions have entirely reversed\nthemselves.\"\n\nI checked back, and it's the method of communicating with the Mother which\nthe narrator \"would never have used while Nettle was alive\". At the time of\nreading I presumed he was speaking in the past tense because he was\nconvinced he was about to die (or at least 'cease to exist') and so would\nnever get to use it. However, presumably Silk subsequently did, as Seawrack\nthen appears pretty quickly afterward.\n\nAnd from cephalothorax:\n\"> \"I would never have used it while Nettle was alive\"," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "confused me, Jahlee didn't kill Nettle, did she?\nDidn't Nettle go with Silk and Marble?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No and No.\"\n\nI understood Nettle DID sail with the rest back to Pajorocou, which is why\nNettle is \"making her own\"[goodbyes] whilst Horn/Silk is talking to Daisy\n[p411] and why Daisy hopes \"he and his eerie young woman, Nettle the old\nsibyl, and their bird [are] on course upon a greater sea\" [p412]. Of\ncourse, as I've already admitted I don't understand the end, I could just be\nplain wrong...\n\nand another from cephelothorax:\n\n\"Persnickety: Are we really meant to believe that\n Severian, who writes about Master Ash, and the Green\nMan, and being a white fountain hundreds of years\nbefore he's born is going to consider \"Horn\" too much\nof a stretch for his readers to believe because he's\ngot the love-vibe and walks through walls?\"\n\nOn this I'm no more certain, but I got the distinct impression that the\napprentice Severian was under the impression that Horn / Silk's spirit was\nactually Malrubius' ghost (hence his comment to Gurloes about Oreb), which\nof course does get mentioned frequently throughout TBOTNS( & he certainly\npairs Malrubius with Triskele a fair bit). Whether Wolfe has managed the\nphenomenal task of tying the ends up, we won't know until someone has the\nenergy to re-read TBOTNS looking for them. Surely such a thing is\nimpossible, but I'm trying not to make the mistake of under-estimating\nWolfe...\n\nIan\n\n\n\n\n\nI\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "2001-02-06T16:15:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: RTTW (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 07:53 PM 06-02-01 -0000, Ian Smith wrote:\nFrom Nacre's post:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I would never have \nused it while Nettle was \nalive\", confused me, \nJahlee didn't kill Nettle, \ndid she? Didn't Nettle \ngo with Silk and Marble?\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the most part, I agree with David \nDiGiacomo's answers. For the ques-\ntion above, though, I'd suggest that it's \nanother example of Horn's and Silk's \nmemories mixing. \"It\" is the azoth, if \nI recall correctly (I don't have the book \nhere to check); he says \"Nettle\" but \nmeans, I think, Hyacinth. Note, if you \nwill, that this error is the opposite of \nthe ones he was making at the begin-\nning of OBW; at that time, Hyacinth's\nname often appeared when he meant \nNettle, but by this point, the substitu-\ntions have entirely reversed themselves.\"\n\nI checked back, and it's the method of communicating \nwith the Mother which the narrator \"would never have \nused while Nettle was alive\". At the time of reading I \npresumed he was speaking in the past tense because he \nwas convinced he was about to die (or at least 'cease to \nexist') and so would never get to use it. However, \npresumably Silk subsequently did, as Seawrack then \nappears pretty quickly afterward.\n\n[snip]\n\nIan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoops! Thanks for the correction, Ian; and so much for \nmy decaying memory.\n\nNacre\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-07T23:18:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: RTTW (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/6/01 7:53 PM, Ian Smith at doctoriancsmith at hotmail.com wrote:\nJust finished RTTWand heartily confused at the ending. Will someone who is\nmore able please alleviate my stupidity by explaining exactly what happened\nin that last scene with Remora, esp. what the 'Hyacinth' passage from the\nwritings indicated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The person we have been thinking of as Horn in Silk's body is actually Silk\nwith Horn's memories. Silk could not admit to himself that he was Silk\nbecause that would mean admitting that Hyacinth was dead. The Hyacinth\npassage enabled Silk to accept this.\n\nI have to admit I was caught completely by surprise. Now, of course, I'll\nhave to reread all three volumes in this light.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-02-08T18:04:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: RTTW (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 19:53 2001-02-06 -0000, Ian wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having read the posts, I also have a couple more pennies-worth of my own to\nstick in:\n\nFrom Nacre's post:\n\n\"I would never have used it while\nNettle was alive\", confused me, Jahlee\ndidn't kill Nettle, did she? Didn't\nNettle go with Silk and Marble?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I checked back, and it's the method of communicating with the Mother which\nthe narrator \"would never have used while Nettle was alive\". At the time of\nreading I presumed he was speaking in the past tense because he was\nconvinced he was about to die (or at least 'cease to exist') and so would\nnever get to use it. However, presumably Silk subsequently did, as Seawrack\nthen appears pretty quickly afterward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes - it's definitely Horn speaking at the time, and he never does use it.\nIt's Silk who does that. I don't know exactly what happens to Horn when\nSilk recovers himself, but it's pretty terminal: he anticipates Remora's\nreturn as that of an executioner, and Silk talks to Daisy about having\nmore or less killed Hoof and Hide's father.\n\nSpectacled Bear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "dd at adobe.com" }, "date": "2001-02-08T10:29:29+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: RTTW (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Stephanides \n\nThe person we have been thinking of as Horn in Silk's body is actually Silk\nwith Horn's memories. Silk could not admit to himself that he was Silk\nbecause that would mean admitting that Hyacinth was dead. The Hyacinth\npassage enabled Silk to accept this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would just add to this that the Neighbor told Horn \"I can send your\nspirit into someone else\" - spirit, not memories.\n\nIn retrospect, Fava's afterlife was a good clue.\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }