{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1099", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1099, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n037", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-02-05T07:51:13+00:00", "last": "2001-02-06T13:12:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Sheila Herndon", "address": "skherndon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-02-05T07:51:13+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n037", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- whorl-errors at lists1.ba.best.com wrote:\nSubject: Cool plant\nFound it! It's a tropical weed called mimosa pudica\nor sensitive-plant," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You find it\nwild at roadside in\nsome of the Gulf states--that's where you live, I\npresume." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where I grew up, but do not now live." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Subject: Re: (whorl) RTTW up to pg. 81 SPOILERS\np. 47. The \"Silent Shout\" section. I am betting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't have the book with me, but I recall taking\nit to mean the sunrise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yes indeed. but is he referring to a poem that\nI haven't read that described the sunrise in this\nway? it's lovely. \n\nI seem to recall a verse in the bible that describes\nthe hills shouting the glory of god, or some such.\nSo perhaps Wolfe was thinking of this, and to himself,\nthe hills must always be shouting, but we don't\nhear them - so it's a silent shout.\n\nbut, truly, I suspect, maybe he's also referring\nto a poem or idea that has been used somewhere\nbefore, which I have not come across, so if that's\ncase, someone bring it up please. thanks.\n\nI am goin to bow out of the list for a while, until\nI finish the book - but I will save messages and\ngo through them later.\n\nI was wondering if anyone else had already brought\nup that Silk/Horn/Oreb is a trinity? I'm sure this\nmust have already been brought up, but is there\na search utility for the list? It's cool though ...\nI can't beleive I didn't think of it sooner - \nSilk would be like the \"god\" part, inside of the\nhuman part - Horn, and Oreb is a holy spirit\npart - like in the scene of the baptism where\nthe holy spirit descends int he form of a dove -\nexcept what's cool are all the differences in the\nstory - \n\nIn face, if we imagine that Horn's spirit has\nbeen transported - then Horn is actually the\n\"god\" part, even though he's more human, and\nSilk is the \"body\" part, and Oreb who is the holy\nspirit is a night chough, black, who can see in\nthe dark, whereas a dove is white, and innocent.\n\nit's all very interesting. and Horn wants to be more\nlike a human. and in a way, I feel this is meant\nto represent people wanting to be more perfect, or\nmore godlike, but there is an irony in the story\nthat Horn is the 'actual' human part - but is\nallegorically representing the 'soul' part. or at\nleast, that's waht I am imagining so far. I could\nbe totally offbase, it has been known to happen. :)\n\nthanks for the name. I had trouble finding that \nplant, myself.\n\nmimosa" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "George M. Terry", "address": "gmterry at ucdavis.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-05T09:15:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n037", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Long time list observer, first time poster...\n\nOne of the things that struck me in RTW along this vein is the idea that \nHorn's death/re-incarnation/resurrection is very Christ-like. He dies on \nGreen pretty selflessly, and is re-incarnated/resurrected as Silk. This is \nespecially seen in the scene with Olivine at the Calde's palace where \nHorn/Silk makes the offering of his body and blood in the form of bread and \nwine to the Outsider.\n\nPerhaps this movement of Horn->Silk mirrors the essence of the spiritual \njourney for Gene Wolfe? I don't think that Horn is stupid...he knew Silk, \nand even says at one point in RTW that he realizes he bears a physical \nresemblance to Silk since returning to the Whorl. I think it represents a \nbasic humility in Horn. Horn had previously immersed himself in Silk, \ncertainly viewing him as an model of what is 'right' and 'good'. In his \njourney, learning to love, learning the inhumi secret, he becomes more and \nmore like Silk, until at the moment of his death, dying for a mission of \ncompassion for New Viron, he actually becomes Silk. Would this not be the \ngoal that Wolfe would seek in his own life?\n\nUltimately I think that Horn merely 'incarnates' Silk, in much the way that \nJesus incarnated the divine logos. Any theory that looks at a 'trinity' \nmust include the Outsider, as well.\n\nGeorge Terry" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was wondering if anyone else had already brought\nup that Silk/Horn/Oreb is a trinity? I'm sure this\nmust have already been brought up, but is there\na search utility for the list? It's cool though ...\nI can't beleive I didn't think of it sooner -\nSilk would be like the \"god\" part, inside of the\nhuman part - Horn, and Oreb is a holy spirit\npart - like in the scene of the baptism where\nthe holy spirit descends int he form of a dove -\nexcept what's cool are all the differences in the\nstory -\n\nIn face, if we imagine that Horn's spirit has\nbeen transported - then Horn is actually the\n\"god\" part, even though he's more human, and\nSilk is the \"body\" part, and Oreb who is the holy\nspirit is a night chough, black, who can see in\nthe dark, whereas a dove is white, and innocent.\n\nit's all very interesting. and Horn wants to be more\nlike a human. and in a way, I feel this is meant\nto represent people wanting to be more perfect, or\nmore godlike, but there is an irony in the story\nthat Horn is the 'actual' human part - but is\nallegorically representing the 'soul' part. or at\nleast, that's waht I am imagining so far. I could\nbe totally offbase, it has been known to happen. :)\n\nthanks for the name. I had trouble finding that\nplant, myself.\n\nmimosa\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nYahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.\nhttp://shopping.yahoo.com/\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Priddy", "address": "mossmail at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-02-05T20:36:09+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n037", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Emrys wrote:\nMaybe I missed it, but why did the 'divine' Silk\npossess Pig?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a god going for a Sunday stroll. He possessed Pig\nfor the same reason he listens silently from the\nwindows.\nBTW, is just me, or does \"The Divine Silk\" sound like\na transvestite torch singer?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we now to accept that the Ghost of Patera Pike\nat the manteion was in fact a ghost?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What was the deal with Dr. Crane's ghost? Was it\nbrought on solely by being at/in Sick Bay?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Erm, I'm going for no ghost, just visualizing a\nmemory. But maybe I'm forgetting who wrote the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I would never have used it while Nettle was alive\",\nconfused me, Jahlee didn't kill Nettle, did she? \nDidn't Nettle go with Silk and Marble?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No and No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where was the Whorl going and why? Aren't all/most\nof the landers gone? If so why leave?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just going. The gods were more interested the\njourney than the destination. After all, at the\ndestination all their worshippers go away. So this\njourney doesn't have a destination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Silk is so GOOD, as Hoof and Clute suggest (and I\nbelieve, as well) why did he arrange to kill so many\nInhumu, in the city on Green, and at the wedding? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He didn't arrange to kill a bunch of inhumi, he\narranged to be killed a couple. He just underestimated\nJuganu's recruitment abilities. Then he had to help\nlead a battle to keep the wedding party/ town getting\nmunched." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What happened to Chenille and/or Auk? How did Oreb\nget a black ring that morphed into Seawrak's ring?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seawrack gave it to him, and, like a mood ring, it\nlooked different because it wasn't on his finger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally the scene of Hyacinth's body. What\nhappened? \nIt seems from the wounds that needed binding that\nSilk\nmay indeed have committed/attempted, but surely the\nmere entrance to Silk's body of Horn's spirit wasn't\nenough for the body to physically recover. Maybe\nI'm\nlooking at this wrong and the cuts were incidental\nto\nHyacinth's funeral sacrafice, but I've thought since\nIGJ that Silk was contemplating/committing suicide." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to the Neighbors, Silk just didn't have the\nwill to live anymore. I'm chalking it up to Silk the\nsuper-embryo healing once the controlling mind was\nbinging the wounds instead of opening them.\n\ncephalothorax" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Meyers", "address": "jeffmeyers at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-06T13:12:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n037", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Silk is so GOOD, as Hoof and Clute suggest (and I\nbelieve, as well) why did he arrange to kill so many\nInhumu, in the city on Green, and at the wedding?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joel Priddy wrote:\nHe didn't arrange to kill a bunch of inhumi, he\narranged to be killed by a couple. He just underestimated\nJuganu's recruitment abilities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For him to have had such highly-developed leadership skills Juganu must have\nsneaked a little more of Horn/Silk's blood than we might have guessed. As\nhumble and self-effacing as Horn/Silk was, it would make sense that he would\nnot make a big deal of Juganu's drinking a bit a night or two, especially\nwhile they were stuck for three days on the boat. (After all, Horn/Silk was\nplanning his own suicide. What was the harm?) He can't be faulted for not\nadequately thinking through the implications of the mixture of his blood\n(leadership) with Hoof's (impetuous youth), which Juganu was surely tasting\nnow and then.\n\nPatera Bunny\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }