{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1114", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1114, "subject": "[big spoiler] Narrative technique in _Return_", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-02-08T09:52:56+00:00", "last": "2001-02-08T18:32:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-08T09:52:56+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) re: [big spoiler] Narrative technique in _Return_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan wrote, and Adam responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In _Return_, we pretty much get a chapter-by-chapter alternation\nbetween the homeward-bound story and the _Whorl_ story, told in very\ndifferent styles. Homecoming-protagonist pretty much continues his\npersona from _Green's_, but as Whorl-narrator he adopts a very\nmannered avoidance of identification with the Whorl-protagonist: he\nnever names that person (always referred to via third-person pronouns\nor as \"the man who...\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not quite. The third-person sections are not written by the\nHomecoming-protagonist, but by the editors of BoTSS, Hoof, Hide and their\nwives, as stated in the Afterword. Which raises the question: why do the\neditors keep up the ambiguity over the protagonist's identity until almost\nthe end? One possibility is that they don't want to admit that Horn is\ndead, but there are a couple of problems with this: apparently Hide and Hoof\nnever did believe that the protagonist was Horn (see the start of Hoof's\nnarration on p. 337); and when the editors finally do name the protagonist,\nthey unambiguously call him Silk. Another case where the editors create a\nmystery and I don't see why: it's clear that \"Horn\" gives an eye to Pig, but\nas far as I can recall this is never stated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allow me to interject: I don't think that Horn was completely evacuated\nfrom the Horn/Silk/Silk combine (that is Horn spirit/Silk body/mainframe\nSilk-via-Pig's body spirit) until after the big quest was completed.\n\nJust as Scylla's quest took them on a \"tangential\" side trip to Urth, so\nthat she could \"come home\" and be reunited with her original body in her\noriginal homeland. Same thing for Horn. Or so it seems to me.\n\nAfter Horn is laid to rest, the combine is Silk/Silk, or Silk2. Still not\ncured of that awful melancholy, suggesting that main frame isn't an easy\ncure-all, but perhaps he is a bit better?\n\nAs for editors creating mystery, I think the lack of their fingerprints in\nIGJ (footnotes, comments) was something larger in that it suggested that\nthey (editors and family) had not received the book.\n\nPart of the difficulty surrounding Horn giving Silk's eye to Pig, it seems\nto me, is the fact that at precisely this moment, when Pig first looks at\nhis benefactor after the operation, the transfer happens, and Horn/Silk\nbecomes Horn/Silk/Silk.\n\nOne of the first tricky questions for me was, \"Why would Nettle leave Blue?\nWhy not be a grandmother?\" For this I think the biggest answer is probably\nthat she was told the damning secret, and as a result she would be hunted\non Blue. Beyond that, well, the colony has gone to hell, time to move on!\n\nWhat about Seawrack? Here's the weird case where she was Horn's\ngirlfriend, and while the Horn/Silk/Silk combine occassionally confused\nSeawrack with Hyacinth, still, I don't think that Silk2 is likely to have\nan affair with Seawrack, just as Horn wouldn't do so with Hyacinth. So why\nis Seawrack going? She is such a wild, untamed thing, and the Whorl seems\nlike such a domestic scene . . . unless she will live in the Lake as the\nreplacement for Scylla?\n\nSilk2: widower; Nettle: widow; Seawrack: siren; Marble: mother; Oreb: free\nbird?\n\nBut back to Urth--that Scylla's body was in Severian's favorite mausoleum\n(remember the bronze that has his own features) causes all sorts of big\nripples . . . is Severian, at root, a member of the same family? He cannot\nbe Typhon, since Typhon is blond and entombed on Mount Typhon. So if he is\na member of the royal family, he must be a son. One of the two sons. A\ndark son. Perhaps the dark son who had a mildly helpful role in TBOTLS.\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "dd at adobe.com" }, "date": "2001-02-08T14:16:51+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: [big spoiler] Narrative technique in _Return_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Andre-Driussi \nSubject: (whorl) re: [big spoiler] Narrative technique in _Return_\nDate: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:52:56 -0800\n\nPart of the difficulty surrounding Horn giving Silk's eye to Pig, it seems\nto me, is the fact that at precisely this moment, when Pig first looks at\nhis benefactor after the operation, the transfer happens, and Horn/Silk\nbecomes Horn/Silk/Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any reason to think that a god can do a direct bio-bio transfer?\nIf not, the path must have been Pig->glass, glass->Horn/Silk, and it\nhappened shortly after Pig saw Horn/Silk.\n\nIt seems odd that Silk in Mainframe hadn't noticed his body long before\nthis, and entered it to see what was going on.\n\nCan anyone think of an explanation for gods uploading themselves via the\neyes? Normal eyes are not output devices, unless some sort of twitch code\nis used, and another part of the body would serve as well for that.\nPerhaps Pas bioengineered something, but there is no evidence of\nbiotechnology that advanced. It seems like a weak point in the series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the first tricky questions for me was, \"Why would Nettle leave Blue?\nWhy not be a grandmother?\" For this I think the biggest answer is probably\nthat she was told the damning secret, and as a result she would be hunted\non Blue. Beyond that, well, the colony has gone to hell, time to move on!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the second reason would be enough to make her go on a trip\nwith Seawrack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about Seawrack? Here's the weird case where she was Horn's\ngirlfriend, and while the Horn/Silk/Silk combine occassionally confused\nSeawrack with Hyacinth, still, I don't think that Silk2 is likely to have\nan affair with Seawrack, just as Horn wouldn't do so with Hyacinth. So why\nis Seawrack going?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mother told her to go.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "2001-02-08T17:31:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) re: [big spoiler] Narrative technique in _Return_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:52 AM 08-02-01 -0800, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n[snip]\n\nBut back to Urth--that Scylla's body was in Severian's \nfavorite mausoleum (remember the bronze that has \nhis own features) causes all sorts of big ripples . . . is \nSeverian, at root, a member of the same family? He \ncannot be Typhon, since Typhon is blond and \nentombed on Mount Typhon. So if he is a member \nof the royal family, he must be a son. One of the \ntwo sons. A dark son. Perhaps the dark son who \nhad a mildly helpful role in TBOTLS.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely, mantis, Severian is a grandson of Typhon, at nearest, if \nnot a remote descendant. Unless you're prepared to throw out \nthe conclusion that Ouen is Severian's father and Dorcas is \nOuen's mother, we know Severian's father is not a member of \nTyphon's family. That leaves his mother, and unless Typhon \n& co. were (1) walking the corridors of Time, which, for all \ntheir other activities, we haven't known them to do, (2) allowing \nEchidna to go gallivanting about getting herself impregnated by \nmen other than Typhon (a bad way to ensure the continuity of \na royal line, to be sure), or (3) playing body-games -much- more \ninteresting than the one that Typhon tried with Piaton, I don't \nsee how Severian could be a member of Typhon's immediate \nfamily. \n\nI'd much prefer the more allegorical explanation that, as the \nexultant families came to Urth with Typhon, they're all part of \nhis extended \"family\", latterly including Severian through his \nmother.\n\nOf course, that still leaves open the question that you're trying \nto answer, to wit: Why would Scylla insist on being buried in \nSeverian's mausoleum? Perhaps Echidna's original was un-\nfaithful to Typhon, or was already pregnant when she married \nhim, and Cilinia is Severian's daughter. \n\nNacre\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Meyers", "address": "jeffmeyers at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-08T18:32:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: [big spoiler] Narrative technique in _Return_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David DiGiacomo
wrote:\nCan anyone think of an explanation for gods uploading themselves via the\neyes? Normal eyes are not output devices, unless some sort of twitch code\nis used, and another part of the body would serve as well for that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A symbolic one: \"The eye is the lamp of the body\" (Matt. 6:22).\n\nPatera Bunny\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }