{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1122", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1122, "subject": "Who is he? (RTTW spoilers)", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-09T19:07:42+00:00", "last": "2001-02-13T13:18:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-09T19:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Who is he? (RTTW spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My first post about the identity of the protagonist of RTTW, and of much of\nthe other two books, was written in haste. Since them I've thought about it\nmore, and I've come to the conclusion that I was more right than wrong:\n\"Horn\" is Silk, or at least more Silk than Horn, from the time he \"finds\nhimself\" beside Hyacinth's body in Whorl.\n\nThe two alternatives I've seen suggested here are that it is Horn in Silk's\nbody until Horn visits Pig at the West Pole, then Hornsilk until some point\nafter the return to New Viron, then Silk (if I understand correctly what\nmantis wrote); or that it was Horn in Silk's body until Remora reads him the\nhyacinth passage. Against the first hypothesis, I didn't observe any marked\nchange in \"Horn\"'s personality or behavior after the visit to the West Pole;\nnor is there a change in others' reactions to \"Horn\" (more on this below).\nAgainst the second hypothesis, I don't see why hearing the hyacinth passage\nshould drive Horn's spirit out of Silk's body, or make it want to leave,\nwhereas in my earlier post I gave an explanation for why it would bring Silk\nto realize his identity.\n\nAgainst both these hypotheses, neither provides a good explanation for why\n\"Horn\" fails to realize he is in Silk's body, or even entertain the\npossibility. He knows he is in another body; he seemingly can't walk five\nsteps on Whorl without somebody calling him Silk; he knows Pig thinks he is\nSilk; and Mint bluntly tells him that he is Silk laboring under a delusion\n(all this before he goes to the West Pole). Yet he never draws the obvious\nconclusion. If he really is Horn, he's astonishingly dense. I don't think\nthat Horn's not wanting to believe that Silk could have attempted suicide,\nas has been suggested before on this list, is a sufficient explanation. But\nSilk's not being able to accept that Hyacinth is dead is.\n\nMy final argument is subjective: I think the series is much better if \"Horn\"\nis Silk. Silk, escaping from his wife's death by burying own identity, is\nmuch more moving than Horn or Hornsilk stumbling around on a quest he\ninexplicably doesn't realize is finished. More than this: \"'Horn' is Silk\"\nfeels _right_ to me, in the same way that \"Weer is dead\" felt right, and as\n\"Horn is in Silk's body\" never did.\n\nOn the other hand, there is some evidence contradicting my original\nassertion that only Horn's memories were transferred to Silk's body. First,\nas David DiGiacomo points out, the Neighbor had told Horn that his spirit\nwould be transferred, not his memories. This could be gotten around; but\nthere is also the evidence of the astral journeys. On \"Horn\"'s first trip\nto the Red Sun Whorl with Hoof, he looks, apparently, like a mix between\nSilk and Horn (p. 346) and this is apparently true of his earlier astral\ntrips as well, and of the next-to-last trip to the Red Sun Whorl (p. 388,\nIGJ p. 373). On his final trip to the Red Sun Whorl, though, he looks like\na younger Silk (p. 388). This is perplexing, because nothing happens\nbetween the next-to-last and last trips which could be expected to drive\nHorn's spirit out of Silk or make it want to leave. (The only possibility I\ncan see that might be plausible is Horn's bargain with Scylla, but why that\nshould have this effect I have no idea.)\n\nBe that as it may, if \"Horn\"'s changed appearance on the last trip does\nindicate the departure of whatever portion of Horn's spirit had been\npresent, we should see some change in \"Horn\"'s behavior. And we do: it is\non the last trip that \"Horn\" provokes Juganu to kill him. It seems unlikely\nthat \"Horn\" would want to die because he failed to bring Silk, as he claims.\nI think that Silk, free of whatever restraining influence Horn's spirit\nexercised (and, perhaps, with the awareness that he is Silk and Hyacinth\ndead coming closer to consciousness), is trying to finish his interrupted\nsuicide, though giving it an explanation that fits Horn's memories.\n\nSo my current theory is that the Neighbor did send Horn's spirit into Silk's\nbody. There it did not continue existing separately from Silk's spirit, as\nin possession; rather, it merged with Silk's spirit, as is shown by the\nastral appearance. In this merger, the components deriving from Silk's\nspirit were dominant, although \"Silkhorn\" believed himself to be Horn, to\navoid facing Hyacinth's death. Between the next-to-last and last visits to\nthe Red Sun Whorl, the remnant of Horn's spirit departed for some reason,\nleaving \"Horn\" wholly Silk. I can't claim to be able to explain everything\nin this account, but it seems to me that it fits the text better than any of\nthe alternatives that have been proposed.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-13T13:18:25+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) re: Who is he? (RTTW spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While we await Adam's model of Silk-in-Pig and why the narrator should want\nto have it inside his crowded head, allow me to try again. A different\napproach, using Adam's previous post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam wrote:\nSo my current theory is that the Neighbor did send Horn's spirit into Silk's\nbody. There it did not continue existing separately from Silk's spirit, as\nin possession; rather, it merged with Silk's spirit, as is shown by the\nastral appearance. In this merger, the components deriving from Silk's\nspirit were dominant, although \"Silkhorn\" believed himself to be Horn, to\navoid facing Hyacinth's death. Between the next-to-last and last visits to\nthe Red Sun Whorl, the remnant of Horn's spirit departed for some reason,\nleaving \"Horn\" wholly Silk. I can't claim to be able to explain everything\nin this account, but it seems to me that it fits the text better than any of\nthe alternatives that have been proposed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, well put. However, Adam, wouldn't it be an even stronger case if the\nworld-weary Silk-who-saw-Hyacinth-dead was gone and replaced by a fresh\nSilk-who-did-not-even-know-she-was-sick? So that the only one in that body\nwho knew the complete truth about Hyacinth was the Horn spirit.\n\nThus, a new-Silk \"coming up to speed on the events of the last few years\"\nrather than old-Silk being completely delusional.\n\nLet us also put upon the table the literary Silk: this is the creation of\nHorn and Nettle, this is the Silk known by most colonists on Blue; this is\nthe man Horn is sent to bring back. Lest we forget, Horn and Nettle wrote\nall of litSilk's dialogue. The gap between litSilk and being inside Silk's\nbody, with one or more versions of Silk spirit as company, is bound to\ncause some trouble for the Horn side of the equation.\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }