{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1132", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1132, "subject": "RTTW spoilers, mea culpa", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-02-11T18:15:26+00:00", "last": "2001-02-14T21:59:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-11T18:15:26+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) RTTW spoilers, mea culpa", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eek! In my rush to express my intuition that the Silk-to-Horn/Silk\ntransfer happened at a very specific point in the text (when Horn/Silk sees\nPig face to face after the operation), not off-stage somewhere (nor\nanywhere else in time), I temporarily forgot all the monitor-to-eyeball\n\"rules of possession\" previously established.\n\nI apologize for that lapse. (Especially easy since there's a monitor there\nwhen they meet!)\n\nAnother point that I thought was very telling in the text follows: Nettle's\nreaction to the news that Horn/Silk had knowingly brought an inhuma to\nLizard Island.\n\nWe can talk endlessly about subtle nuances of diction and poise, \"which set\nis possibly Horn, which set is probably Silk\"; we can wonder if any of\nHorn's children ever really believed (or \"believed\") that Horn/Silk was\ntheir father in any way, shape, or form (well never \"form,\" really); but\n(Penelope) Nettle's reaction, after the build-up over the book or three\nabout how awful the whole inhuma thing had been, how it had all-but ruined\nthe marriage on both sides, Nettle's few words are enough to speak volumes\nleft unspoken: you are not my husband (he would never do such a thing); you\nare not the hero Silk we wrote about (he fended off inhumi).\n\nThis scene is a series of painful shocks: the death of Jahlee and the\nunspoken denunciation of Horn/Silk.\n\nThe death of Jahlee bugs alga more than anything else in RTTW, so I'm\nsurprised she hasn't mentioned it yet . Here is how I see it right now:\nit is very much like the situation in HUCKLEBERRY FINN, where Twain found\nhimself with a problem. The runaway slave and the white trash boy, happy\nand free together on their river journey . . . are floating toward the\nslave block. Going the wrong way. (IIRC, Twain himself put the\nhalf-finished manuscript aside for many years, unable to work around this\nproblem; he finally solved it by introducing Tom Sawyer, who made a\nburlesque of the whole thing).\n\nBut what if Huck had to deal with a more realistic, less forgiving\nsituation? Now we switch back to BOTSS, and how happy we were when\nHorn/Silk called Jahlee his daughter at the end of IGJ! And they continued\nto \"flow down the river\" toward Lizard Island and disaster.\n\nBut why? Why is Jahlee so bent on it? Well, judging by what happens, we\ncan guess a certain ill intent. And what is Horn/Silk's problem that he\ncannot dissuade her: is he simply too soft-hearted, to the point that he is\nbeing taken in by \"Honest John\"?\n\nHere's another analogy, this time from within genre: contrast movie \"Blade\nRunner\" with novel it is (looosely) based on, DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC\nSHEEP?. The former makes the \"feel good\" case that androids are people,\ntoo; the latter, while it makes the \"feel uneasy\" case of \"what is human,\nanyway?\", it uses the aformentioned \"feel good\" notion as a foil that is\nalways being trumped by \"no, androids are not human at all: they are\nkilling machines.\" It is a powerful and nervy thing for Dick to do, since\nright from the start he makes the equation that the androids are slaves\njust like the slaves in America (the ads for the Mars colony mention that\nit is like the ante-bellum South, iirc); so it is a natural thing for us to\nwant civil rights for androids. Yet it turns into a McCarthy-esque\nnightmare: the androids have built a hidden empire on Earth, and control\nthe popular media, and are hell-bent on destroying the humans through\npolluting their minds. (Even then, the story does not become \"let's save\nEarth from these body-snatchers!\")\n\nThese are unsettling things. Huck and Jim float down the river, and only a\n\"fakey\" happy ending tacked on can save it (though some think this nearly\nruins the book). The android hunter becomes \"soft\" on androids, bedding\none, etc., and she strikes back in the most pointlessly vindictive way she\ncan (hmmm, does that make the android \"more human\" ). And our Odysseus\ntakes a viper back to his ophiophobic Penelope.\n\nIn the end, they leave the world; they don't try to wipe-out the inhumi.\n(Rather like DADOES, in that way, but for different reasons.)\n\nOther things:\nViscacha thinks Pig's language is more Scottish, and I agree, since I told\nthe same thing to Henry Kaiser a few weeks ago.\n\nRe: Seawrack, and Silk. Speculation on Seawrack containing or having the\npotential to contain Kypris. One of my initial strange thoughts about\nSilk's motive for inviting Seawrack along: that she is a good body for\nHyacinth to be downloaded into. Hard to believe that Silk would think such\na thing, but his Hyacinth obsession . . .\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-13T13:07:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, mea culpa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/12/01 2:15 AM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at sirius.com wrote:\nEek! In my rush to express my intuition that the Silk-to-Horn/Silk\ntransfer happened at a very specific point in the text (when Horn/Silk sees\nPig face to face after the operation), not off-stage somewhere (nor\nanywhere else in time), I temporarily forgot all the monitor-to-eyeball\n\"rules of possession\" previously established." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope you won't be offended if I ask you where this intuition comes from.\nI'm sure you understand the book much better than me, but I honestly don't\nrecall anything which even suggests that Silk's spirit is absent from his\nbody when Horn's spirit is transferred in, and is \"reloaded\" from Pig after\nthe operation (if I understand your position correctly).\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-02-13T15:05:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, mea culpa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:07 PM 2/13/01 +0000, Adam wrote:\nI hope you won't be offended if I ask you where this intuition comes from.\nI'm sure you understand the book much better than me, but I honestly don't\nrecall anything which even suggests that Silk's spirit is absent from his\nbody when Horn's spirit is transferred in, and is \"reloaded\" from Pig after\nthe operation (if I understand your position correctly)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, the giveaway that there's a huge amount of Silk in \"the protagonist\"\nfrom the moment that Horn moves into his body is the amount of minutiae\nthat he displays about the religion of Pas and the Children while on the\n_Whorl_. \n\nI know the conversation about \"what do you call it when you read the future\nfrom the flight of birds?\" is with Pig, and I believe he does a full\nexegesis of an excerpt from the Chrasmological Writings before the scene\nMichael discusses. The Chrasmomancy in particular strikes me as being\nunmistakably Silk; in fact, while reading the novel I felt it was somewhat\nout of character for Horn to be so Silkian. I should know better.....\n\nAnyway, refresh my memory. Does the protagonist indulge in Chrasmomancy\nbefore he gives his eye to Pig? If so, I'd say that's strong evidence that\nhe's largely Silk from the moment they merge. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games \n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-14T21:59:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, mea culpa", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/13/01 8:05 PM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:\nTo me, the giveaway that there's a huge amount of Silk in \"the protagonist\"\nfrom the moment that Horn moves into his body is the amount of minutiae\nthat he displays about the religion of Pas and the Children while on the\n_Whorl_. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed; and not only his knowledge, but the sententiousness with which he\ndispenses it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know the conversation about \"what do you call it when you read the future\nfrom the flight of birds?\" is with Pig, and I believe he does a full\nexegesis of an excerpt from the Chrasmological Writings before the scene\nMichael discusses. The Chrasmomancy in particular strikes me as being\nunmistakably Silk; in fact, while reading the novel I felt it was somewhat\nout of character for Horn to be so Silkian. I should know better.....\n\nAnyway, refresh my memory. Does the protagonist indulge in Chrasmomancy\nbefore he gives his eye to Pig? If so, I'd say that's strong evidence that\nhe's largely Silk from the moment they merge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does, in Chapter 12, with Olivine, an exegesis that takes several pages.\nVery Silkian.\n\nThere are additianal signs of Silk's presence in \"Horn\" on the Whorl. For\none thing, there is his strong visceral reaction to the knife he finds at\nhis feet (13-14). I don't see how to explain this, other than that he\nunconsciously remembers this knife injuring him. For another, almost as\nsoon as \"Horn\" appears on Whorl, he is thinking about Hyacinth and of how\nmuch he wanted her and how much better things would have been if he had\ngotten her (this motif recurs later, though I can't find the place at the\nmoment).\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }