{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1135", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1135, "subject": "Notes From A Second Reading (spoilers)", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-12T01:58:26+00:00", "last": "2001-02-12T10:18:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2001-02-12T01:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Notes From A Second Reading (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some responses to vizcacha's fine second reading of RTTW.\n\n<2) It's quite obvious to me that RttW, and to a lesser extent TBotSS as a\nwhole, is a long suicide note. Clearly Silk was in the process of committing\nsuicide due to his grief at Hyacinth's death when Horn's spirit was infused\nin his body.>\n\nRight. And how does Silk kill himself after this long contemplation of\nsuicide? He cuts himself a bunch of times on the arms with a knife!?!\nSurely, as an augur who's sacrificed hundred of animals, Silk would know to\nkill himself much more cleanly and expeditiously. I have a friend with a\ntroubled teenage daughter who's seeing a therapist because she is constantly\ncutting her arms, but never to the point of any real serious damage other\nthan lots of scar tissue and terrified parents. In other words, given his\nbackground and experience, Silk attempting suicide by knicking himself to\ndeath is just plain ridiculous.\n\n 2a) If Pig \"killed\" Silk and lost his \"een\" afterwards, it was the quickest\nrecovery from such massive trauma on record. Horn was added to the dying\nSilk, woke up, wandered out into the light, fell asleep, awoke on a darkday,\nand met Pig the same day. If Pig had lost his \"een\" shortly after an attack\non Silk, he would still be bleeding.>\n\nI'm arguing that the entity known as \"Pig\" never had eyes to begin\nwith--hence has been blind since birth, or decanting, or call-up--however\ngodlings are created--the same way the original Urth-born Tartaros was. To\nstate it another way, the original Tartaros provided the inspiration; Pig is\nthe\nknockoff and host. He does need to account, however, for his blindness,\nwhich is why he invents the story about losing his eyes to a mercenary's\nknife, and it also helps to explain the presence of Pas, who allegedly is\ntrapped within Pig's conduitless mind. It's much easier than saying, \"Hey,\nI'm Pas's older son, I was born\nthis way.\" And I certainly never meant to suggest that Pig's eyes were\ndestroyed in combat by Silk--so there is no massive trauma to begin with.\nHis blindness--and lack of eyes--is congenital.\n\n\n\nAs I alluded to in my second Piggie post, I believe Seawrack is \"harboring\"\nsomeone, and since mantis beat me to the punch, I will say I intend to argue\nit's Kypris--last seen fleeing Echidna and her monstrous brood in LS--only\nshe's being held hostage by Scylla/the Mother and used as the ultimate\nbargaining chip in her war with big daddy Pas. This, as I hope to show,\nresolves a number of problems and also involves Tartaros as envoy between\nthe two sides. Stay tuned.\n\n<5) p 183. Horn/Silk is wondering how he got to Green from Judge Hamer's\nsellaria with no inhumu present. He gives three possibilities: 1) Fava\nposessing Vadsig, 2) the presence of an unknown inhumu, 3) assistance by the\nNeighbors, and 4) a possibility he is \"loath to mention.\" Anyone know what\nthat possibility is? Is it, as suggested by several posters, that Horn/Silk\nhimself is an inhumu? >\n\nWell, I do have my own pet theory. If the Neighbors possess the same\nabilities of bilocation as the inhumi, the fragment of Passilk in Horn might\nallow him also to dream-jump. This presupposes that Pas/Typhon is originally\nfrom Green/Blue; hence he's an expatriot Neighbor come home--evidence which\nI think is supported in RTTW. (Look at the little girl in Hide's dream who's\nhiding under the bed from what Hide describes as men with too many legs.\nDon't you think she's Cilinia/Scylla, hiding from Pas? The doll that walks\nslow and looks in all the cabinets also sounds like the big godling who\nfinds Horn/Silk--more evidence for alga's missing talus, perhaps.). Horn,\nhowever, refuses to acknowledge this because it means he must first accept\nhe's Silk--something he doesn't do until the novels's end--therefore he\nnever finishes the sentence. This same alien attribute may also contribute\nto his peculiar eating habits.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-12T10:18:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Notes From A Second Reading (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/12/01 7:58 AM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote:\nSome responses to vizcacha's fine second reading of RTTW.\n\n<2) It's quite obvious to me that RttW, and to a lesser extent TBotSS as a\nwhole, is a long suicide note. Clearly Silk was in the process of committing\nsuicide due to his grief at Hyacinth's death when Horn's spirit was infused\nin his body.>\n\nRight. And how does Silk kill himself after this long contemplation of\nsuicide? He cuts himself a bunch of times on the arms with a knife!?!\nSurely, as an augur who's sacrificed hundred of animals, Silk would know to\nkill himself much more cleanly and expeditiously. I have a friend with a\ntroubled teenage daughter who's seeing a therapist because she is constantly\ncutting her arms, but never to the point of any real serious damage other\nthan lots of scar tissue and terrified parents. In other words, given his\nbackground and experience, Silk attempting suicide by knicking himself to\ndeath is just plain ridiculous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As opposed to a godling killing Silk by nicking him to death? Like many who\nattempt suicide, Silk 's courage failed him at the sticking-point and he\nonly went through with it half-heartedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm arguing that the entity known as \"Pig\" never had eyes to begin\nwith--hence has been blind since birth, or decanting, or call-up--however\ngodlings are created--the same way the original Urth-born Tartaros was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \"Can yer see 'em, bucky? See me een? Where they was?\"\n He made himself speak. \"Yes, Pig. Yes, I can.\"\n \"Gaen, hain't they? They cut 'em oot?\"\n He lowered his lantern and looked away. \"Yes, they are. They did.\"\n(113)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but look who gives us these explicit details: Pig! Again, he needs to\nsomehow explain the\npresence of Pas in him--notice also how Pig at one time tells Horn that\nHierax is dead, but never mentions Tartaros--and yet not reveal he's\nmurdered Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why did he need to confess to killing an augur to explain the presence of\nPassilk? Besides, with so much possession going on on the Whorl, it's the\npeople who aren't possessed who need to explain themselves. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And look again at what you're arguing: Silk just happens to\ncommit suicide at the moment Horn dies on Green, even as a lumbering blind\ngiant who's traveled all the way across the Whorl with a piece of Passilk\ntrapped in his head casually bumps into Horn/Silk a short while after the\ntwo have merged. It's a bit of a coincidence, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but as has been pointed out, Wolfe likes coincidences; presumably we\nare to see the Outsider's hand in them. Your way is a bit of a coincidence\ntoo, unless the Neighbor telepathically alerted Pig that Horn was dying and\nPig should kill Silk so Horn's spirit would have a place to go.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }